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	<title>Comments on: Another Energy Scam</title>
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	<link>http://www.skepticblog.org/2010/03/08/another-energy-scam/</link>
	<description>The official blog of the Skeptologists</description>
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		<title>By: Greetings from THE FUTURE</title>
		<link>http://www.skepticblog.org/2010/03/08/another-energy-scam/#comment-30434</link>
		<dc:creator>Greetings from THE FUTURE</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Nov 2010 20:36:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skepticblog.org/?p=7200#comment-30434</guid>
		<description>@JB (21): So MadScientist has to write a scientific paper to prove that Manna of Utah&#039;s technology doesn&#039;t work, but they don&#039;t have to write one proving it does?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@JB (21): So MadScientist has to write a scientific paper to prove that Manna of Utah&#8217;s technology doesn&#8217;t work, but they don&#8217;t have to write one proving it does?</p>
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		<title>By: Herlin</title>
		<link>http://www.skepticblog.org/2010/03/08/another-energy-scam/#comment-24997</link>
		<dc:creator>Herlin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Aug 2010 21:44:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skepticblog.org/?p=7200#comment-24997</guid>
		<description>You can get nothing from a balanced system. However you can unbalance a system. You should also consider the source of magnetism. Also consider how electromagnetism is created.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You can get nothing from a balanced system. However you can unbalance a system. You should also consider the source of magnetism. Also consider how electromagnetism is created.</p>
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		<title>By: JB</title>
		<link>http://www.skepticblog.org/2010/03/08/another-energy-scam/#comment-20390</link>
		<dc:creator>JB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Apr 2010 14:01:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skepticblog.org/?p=7200#comment-20390</guid>
		<description>The below comments were taken from another forum, that should have as good as point as the claims that Mr. Mad Scientist wants to try and put forward

Dear Mr. Mad Scientist:



You&#039;ve written standard internet  polemics, but have not written a scientific paper.  Manna of Utah will succeed and hire people here, or it won&#039;t.  The outcome will matter, but the pre-outcome debate won&#039;t.  I&#039;m not offended that you have an opinion, and have no reason to think you&#039;re wrong or right, but I do wish you wouldn&#039;t make science look bad by claiming more than you&#039;re doing. 



A scientific writing has three parts.  Part one is to write a testable hypothesis.  You&#039;ve done the hypothesis part for Manna&#039;s generators, but it could be tough to do a real test without having either a working generator or some help from Manna.



Part two of a scientific paper is to describe the hypothesis test methods and results.  I think you&#039;ve given us three bits of evidence, none of them scientifically valid.  One of the evidences in your links is that many people agree with your hypothesis, but that&#039;s not really evidence;  many people also once agreed that night air caused malaria.

Your other tests allege violations of the accepted thermodynamic principle that it isn&#039;t possible to create energy.  One of the ways you come at that is to say Manna people claim the generator isn&#039;t a perpetual motion machine, so therefore it must be.  That notion requires an assumption you didn&#039;t prove.  You also say that because you can&#039;t think of any way the machine could work without creating energy, it can&#039;t work.  But pure ignorance isn&#039;t a test.  I don&#039;t understand how computers work either, but we know they do.



After writing a hypothesis and describing test results, a scientific paper will discuss possible conclusions that can be based on the results.  Since you have neither real tests nor real results, you&#039;re left with an unproven hypothesis, or an opinion.



Finally, it&#039;s fine for you to have an opinion and to express it.  It isn&#039;t fine to confuse opinion with science.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The below comments were taken from another forum, that should have as good as point as the claims that Mr. Mad Scientist wants to try and put forward</p>
<p>Dear Mr. Mad Scientist:</p>
<p>You&#8217;ve written standard internet  polemics, but have not written a scientific paper.  Manna of Utah will succeed and hire people here, or it won&#8217;t.  The outcome will matter, but the pre-outcome debate won&#8217;t.  I&#8217;m not offended that you have an opinion, and have no reason to think you&#8217;re wrong or right, but I do wish you wouldn&#8217;t make science look bad by claiming more than you&#8217;re doing. </p>
<p>A scientific writing has three parts.  Part one is to write a testable hypothesis.  You&#8217;ve done the hypothesis part for Manna&#8217;s generators, but it could be tough to do a real test without having either a working generator or some help from Manna.</p>
<p>Part two of a scientific paper is to describe the hypothesis test methods and results.  I think you&#8217;ve given us three bits of evidence, none of them scientifically valid.  One of the evidences in your links is that many people agree with your hypothesis, but that&#8217;s not really evidence;  many people also once agreed that night air caused malaria.</p>
<p>Your other tests allege violations of the accepted thermodynamic principle that it isn&#8217;t possible to create energy.  One of the ways you come at that is to say Manna people claim the generator isn&#8217;t a perpetual motion machine, so therefore it must be.  That notion requires an assumption you didn&#8217;t prove.  You also say that because you can&#8217;t think of any way the machine could work without creating energy, it can&#8217;t work.  But pure ignorance isn&#8217;t a test.  I don&#8217;t understand how computers work either, but we know they do.</p>
<p>After writing a hypothesis and describing test results, a scientific paper will discuss possible conclusions that can be based on the results.  Since you have neither real tests nor real results, you&#8217;re left with an unproven hypothesis, or an opinion.</p>
<p>Finally, it&#8217;s fine for you to have an opinion and to express it.  It isn&#8217;t fine to confuse opinion with science.</p>
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		<title>By: current Odessan</title>
		<link>http://www.skepticblog.org/2010/03/08/another-energy-scam/#comment-19208</link>
		<dc:creator>current Odessan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Mar 2010 02:58:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skepticblog.org/?p=7200#comment-19208</guid>
		<description>I attended the press conference for this. It was absolutely ridiculous! Most of the mayor&#039;s &amp; the COO&#039;s speeches were about thanking everyone who played event the slightest role in bringing this about. The mayor was obviously reading a speech that he himself did not write. Then when it came to explaining the technology, etc. they were very obsure. Most Odessans I have spoke with are very skeptical about the whole deal. We are not as stupid as the mayor &amp; Kram (the COO) would like to believe. The mayor &amp; Kram are long time friends so of course the mayor is not going to take the time to investigate the company. This is definitely a campaign strategy to help him win the next election. The election is on April 6th so that&#039;s why they had the press conference before anything had been nailed down. Plus, it has been found out that the woman who has the &quot;secret recipes&quot; for the food-processing part of the plant is actually Kram&#039;s mom &amp; the doctor who is in charge of the portable ER unit side is Kram&#039;s brother-in-law. But they were not introduced as such at the press conference. It really iritates me that this deal is making Odessans look like a bunch of idiots. Only a handful of locals were involved in the whole deal. The discussions between the mayor, board of aldermen, &amp; Kram were all held in closed sessions, which meant that the public had no idea what was going on. Now it seems that the property for the plant has been secured so the powers that be are still going along with their plans. Hopefully, the results of the upcoming election will change things. 
Odessans do want &amp; desperately need economic growth. But we also want our city officials to do their homework &amp; investigate these companies. Obviously that didn&#039;t happen in this case.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I attended the press conference for this. It was absolutely ridiculous! Most of the mayor&#8217;s &amp; the COO&#8217;s speeches were about thanking everyone who played event the slightest role in bringing this about. The mayor was obviously reading a speech that he himself did not write. Then when it came to explaining the technology, etc. they were very obsure. Most Odessans I have spoke with are very skeptical about the whole deal. We are not as stupid as the mayor &amp; Kram (the COO) would like to believe. The mayor &amp; Kram are long time friends so of course the mayor is not going to take the time to investigate the company. This is definitely a campaign strategy to help him win the next election. The election is on April 6th so that&#8217;s why they had the press conference before anything had been nailed down. Plus, it has been found out that the woman who has the &#8220;secret recipes&#8221; for the food-processing part of the plant is actually Kram&#8217;s mom &amp; the doctor who is in charge of the portable ER unit side is Kram&#8217;s brother-in-law. But they were not introduced as such at the press conference. It really iritates me that this deal is making Odessans look like a bunch of idiots. Only a handful of locals were involved in the whole deal. The discussions between the mayor, board of aldermen, &amp; Kram were all held in closed sessions, which meant that the public had no idea what was going on. Now it seems that the property for the plant has been secured so the powers that be are still going along with their plans. Hopefully, the results of the upcoming election will change things.<br />
Odessans do want &amp; desperately need economic growth. But we also want our city officials to do their homework &amp; investigate these companies. Obviously that didn&#8217;t happen in this case.</p>
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		<title>By: MadScientist</title>
		<link>http://www.skepticblog.org/2010/03/08/another-energy-scam/#comment-19032</link>
		<dc:creator>MadScientist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Mar 2010 21:07:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skepticblog.org/?p=7200#comment-19032</guid>
		<description>Many snake oils were peddled with &quot;patent pending&quot;. or even &quot;patented&quot;.  After all, who has the resources to search for patents? Fortunately in the past few years some people have been working towards providing free patent searches via the internet (I love &#039;freepatentsonline&#039;).  

Unfortunately I don&#039;t seem to be able to find any free searches for patents pending. Freepatents has the publications online, but who could possibly search those volumes without a computer? It&#039;s unfortunate that the newspaper, though claiming to have shown experts the &#039;patent&#039; (patent application at best if it is still pending - obviously the journalist doesn&#039;t understand the differences), no useful information such as application number or publication date are provided. Of course the company could have put in an application and be claiming &#039;pending&#039; even though they hadn&#039;t received a notice from the PTO yet, but in principle that still means you can show others your patent (if no applications are ever lost).  Want to write to the newspaper and obtain a copy of these patents?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Many snake oils were peddled with &#8220;patent pending&#8221;. or even &#8220;patented&#8221;.  After all, who has the resources to search for patents? Fortunately in the past few years some people have been working towards providing free patent searches via the internet (I love &#8216;freepatentsonline&#8217;).  </p>
<p>Unfortunately I don&#8217;t seem to be able to find any free searches for patents pending. Freepatents has the publications online, but who could possibly search those volumes without a computer? It&#8217;s unfortunate that the newspaper, though claiming to have shown experts the &#8216;patent&#8217; (patent application at best if it is still pending &#8211; obviously the journalist doesn&#8217;t understand the differences), no useful information such as application number or publication date are provided. Of course the company could have put in an application and be claiming &#8216;pending&#8217; even though they hadn&#8217;t received a notice from the PTO yet, but in principle that still means you can show others your patent (if no applications are ever lost).  Want to write to the newspaper and obtain a copy of these patents?</p>
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		<title>By: Robo Sapien</title>
		<link>http://www.skepticblog.org/2010/03/08/another-energy-scam/#comment-18975</link>
		<dc:creator>Robo Sapien</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Mar 2010 13:41:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skepticblog.org/?p=7200#comment-18975</guid>
		<description>One of my skeptical red-flags in marketing is the use (or misuse) of &quot;patent pending&quot; -- The label is granted by the patent office to all applicants while their claim is being reviewed, the purpose is to allow them to use it as a warning to others who would steal the invention, to let them know they could be sued for back-royalties.

Instead, people are using it to give false legitimacy to the junk they are selling.  The public sees &quot;patent pending&quot; and they assume that is the next best thing to an actual patent, and that it must be legit.  I could take a dump in a box, file a patent application with the claim that it cures acne, and call it &quot;patent pending&quot;.  So whenever I see this on something I&#039;m considering buying, I usually avoid doing so until a patent is approved.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One of my skeptical red-flags in marketing is the use (or misuse) of &#8220;patent pending&#8221; &#8212; The label is granted by the patent office to all applicants while their claim is being reviewed, the purpose is to allow them to use it as a warning to others who would steal the invention, to let them know they could be sued for back-royalties.</p>
<p>Instead, people are using it to give false legitimacy to the junk they are selling.  The public sees &#8220;patent pending&#8221; and they assume that is the next best thing to an actual patent, and that it must be legit.  I could take a dump in a box, file a patent application with the claim that it cures acne, and call it &#8220;patent pending&#8221;.  So whenever I see this on something I&#8217;m considering buying, I usually avoid doing so until a patent is approved.</p>
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		<title>By: MadScientist</title>
		<link>http://www.skepticblog.org/2010/03/08/another-energy-scam/#comment-18973</link>
		<dc:creator>MadScientist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Mar 2010 10:26:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skepticblog.org/?p=7200#comment-18973</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve seen that sort of thing a few times - and I even remember Mark Twain writing a few such stories (such as the King and the Duke in Huck Finn).  Well-dressed con artists go into some small community and exploit their good will.  I used to hear a lot of those stories when I was a scientist out in the field.  A few times locals have greeted me with shotguns thanks to scamsters (and sometimes oil or gas companies) coming through and ruining their impression of all strangers.  For example, when the infamous Murchison Meteorite fell in Murchison (Australia), at least one con artist was out there telling the locals that he was a government official looking for fragments of some hazardous material that&#039;s fallen in the neighborhood and that the incident was reported as a meteorite crashing to earth.  So he fleeced a few people of substantial fragments of an interesting (and now quite famous) space rock.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve seen that sort of thing a few times &#8211; and I even remember Mark Twain writing a few such stories (such as the King and the Duke in Huck Finn).  Well-dressed con artists go into some small community and exploit their good will.  I used to hear a lot of those stories when I was a scientist out in the field.  A few times locals have greeted me with shotguns thanks to scamsters (and sometimes oil or gas companies) coming through and ruining their impression of all strangers.  For example, when the infamous Murchison Meteorite fell in Murchison (Australia), at least one con artist was out there telling the locals that he was a government official looking for fragments of some hazardous material that&#8217;s fallen in the neighborhood and that the incident was reported as a meteorite crashing to earth.  So he fleeced a few people of substantial fragments of an interesting (and now quite famous) space rock.</p>
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		<title>By: Jose the Paranormal Skeptic</title>
		<link>http://www.skepticblog.org/2010/03/08/another-energy-scam/#comment-18965</link>
		<dc:creator>Jose the Paranormal Skeptic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Mar 2010 01:22:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skepticblog.org/?p=7200#comment-18965</guid>
		<description>But...what if Jesus doesn&#039;t love you? Does that mean you get no free energy? Maybe there&#039;s a belief tax applied.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But&#8230;what if Jesus doesn&#8217;t love you? Does that mean you get no free energy? Maybe there&#8217;s a belief tax applied.</p>
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		<title>By: J-Mo</title>
		<link>http://www.skepticblog.org/2010/03/08/another-energy-scam/#comment-18959</link>
		<dc:creator>J-Mo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Mar 2010 18:32:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skepticblog.org/?p=7200#comment-18959</guid>
		<description>Wow. I know the COO of Manna of Utah. Always knew he was slimy - didn&#039;t realize HOW much though.

Leave it to a Mormon (he is) to sell a dream to the desperate. I hope he and his little group go down hard before anyone else gets hurt.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow. I know the COO of Manna of Utah. Always knew he was slimy &#8211; didn&#8217;t realize HOW much though.</p>
<p>Leave it to a Mormon (he is) to sell a dream to the desperate. I hope he and his little group go down hard before anyone else gets hurt.</p>
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		<title>By: UtahSkeptic</title>
		<link>http://www.skepticblog.org/2010/03/08/another-energy-scam/#comment-18957</link>
		<dc:creator>UtahSkeptic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Mar 2010 18:25:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skepticblog.org/?p=7200#comment-18957</guid>
		<description>Every time another scam shows up in Utah I have to check to see if it&#039;s a relative... Yeah, I know one of them. No, I&#039;m not related. Whew!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Every time another scam shows up in Utah I have to check to see if it&#8217;s a relative&#8230; Yeah, I know one of them. No, I&#8217;m not related. Whew!</p>
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