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	<title>Comments on: Skeptic on Skeptic</title>
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	<description>The official blog of the Skeptologists</description>
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		<title>By: Kitapsiz</title>
		<link>http://www.skepticblog.org/2009/10/05/skeptic-on-skeptic/#comment-13941</link>
		<dc:creator>Kitapsiz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Oct 2009 02:24:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skepticblog.org/?p=4626#comment-13941</guid>
		<description>Quoted from Skeptic.com, Promoting Science and Critical Thinking. (Copyright © 1992–2009).
     Retrieved October 13, 2009, from Skeptic: Official Web site: http://www.skeptic.com/about_us/

&quot;Modern skepticism is embodied in the scientific method, which involves gathering data to formulate and test naturalistic explanations for natural phenomena. &lt;b&gt;A claim becomes factual when it is confirmed to such an extent it would be reasonable to offer temporary agreement.&lt;/b&gt; But all facts in science are provisional and subject to challenge, and therefore skepticism is a method leading to provisional conclusions.&quot;

As such, this does not leave completely outside the realm, the area of ethics.  Especially with due consideration of the philosophical root of critical thinking in the arts of logic, reasoning, and inference for claims or statements.

As long as a domain is handled with proper professional discipline, and considering that &quot;skepticism&quot; itself is an offshoot of Socratic inquiry methodologies ...

How much claim does one have to being a skeptic, if they ignore the foundation of the discipline itself?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Quoted from Skeptic.com, Promoting Science and Critical Thinking. (Copyright © 1992–2009).<br />
     Retrieved October 13, 2009, from Skeptic: Official Web site: <a href="http://www.skeptic.com/about_us/" rel="nofollow">http://www.skeptic.com/about_us/</a></p>
<p>&#8220;Modern skepticism is embodied in the scientific method, which involves gathering data to formulate and test naturalistic explanations for natural phenomena. <b>A claim becomes factual when it is confirmed to such an extent it would be reasonable to offer temporary agreement.</b> But all facts in science are provisional and subject to challenge, and therefore skepticism is a method leading to provisional conclusions.&#8221;</p>
<p>As such, this does not leave completely outside the realm, the area of ethics.  Especially with due consideration of the philosophical root of critical thinking in the arts of logic, reasoning, and inference for claims or statements.</p>
<p>As long as a domain is handled with proper professional discipline, and considering that &#8220;skepticism&#8221; itself is an offshoot of Socratic inquiry methodologies &#8230;</p>
<p>How much claim does one have to being a skeptic, if they ignore the foundation of the discipline itself?</p>
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		<title>By: Vie</title>
		<link>http://www.skepticblog.org/2009/10/05/skeptic-on-skeptic/#comment-13853</link>
		<dc:creator>Vie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Oct 2009 18:31:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skepticblog.org/?p=4626#comment-13853</guid>
		<description>What is it with guys and always being concerned about the size of their paddles?
No one owns critical thinking. It isn&#039;t a political party or a religion. From my experience, when people attempt to create a false sense of unity among disparate individuals it&#039;s usually because they wish to distract those individuals from the real issue.
My reason for being a skeptic has nothing to do with belonging to a club or subculture. I resent organizations and individuals who attempt to distort or invent &quot;facts&quot; to try to sell me on their cause. I dislike flaky New Agers who bilk innocent, vulnerable people out of money through dubious spiritual practices and alternative medicines. I can&#039;t stand befuddled, soggy-minded pseudo-intellectuals who circulate garbage science because it provides an excuse for their failures. I challenge Pollyannas who perpetuate fuzzy daydreams because they represent a world they personally want to believe in. In my opinion, everyone (particularly authorities), are beholden to facts. I believe people who misrepresent facts need to be challenged.
I have disputed some of Shermer&#039;s posts because there were elements of his theories that didn&#039;t make sense or contradicted known facts. Occasionally, the information Shermer presented was simply incomplete, such as the information concerning Chagnon&#039;s ethnography. The result of incomplete information is that it can be misleading. Whether this is intentional or not- I can&#039;t say.
It certainly has nothing to do with whether or not I like Shermer or his politics. In fact, Shermer was one of my heroes- but heroes can still be wrong. 
I resent your attempt to dissuade criticisms by lumping us into a group with some hazy, barely articulated group agenda. We&#039;re all in a canoe that&#039;s headed presumably in the same direction? I thought that the goal was to cut through nonsense and reach facts. To use your analogy, objective factual reality would be our shore.
We may all be in the same canoe, and some parties may be paddling like heck, but in my opinion they&#039;re paddling in the opposite direction when they post garbage science. Paddling like heck BACKWARDS isn&#039;t helpful to anyone&#039;s cause.
What are our goals as a group, if not to question and challenge? 
As to your argument about bringing an issue to the offending party privately, rather than publicly, I say this: If they were saying it privately, I would be more than happy to address it privately. If the information has already been disseminated to the public in whatever form, then I am no longer addressing the offending party- I&#039;m addressing the public reading the information. 
In my opinion, the scientists who post on this blog (and others)already had ample time to get their facts straight and review their post. If they failed to do so then that&#039;s unfortunate, but their readers shouldn&#039;t have to pay the difference.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What is it with guys and always being concerned about the size of their paddles?<br />
No one owns critical thinking. It isn&#8217;t a political party or a religion. From my experience, when people attempt to create a false sense of unity among disparate individuals it&#8217;s usually because they wish to distract those individuals from the real issue.<br />
My reason for being a skeptic has nothing to do with belonging to a club or subculture. I resent organizations and individuals who attempt to distort or invent &#8220;facts&#8221; to try to sell me on their cause. I dislike flaky New Agers who bilk innocent, vulnerable people out of money through dubious spiritual practices and alternative medicines. I can&#8217;t stand befuddled, soggy-minded pseudo-intellectuals who circulate garbage science because it provides an excuse for their failures. I challenge Pollyannas who perpetuate fuzzy daydreams because they represent a world they personally want to believe in. In my opinion, everyone (particularly authorities), are beholden to facts. I believe people who misrepresent facts need to be challenged.<br />
I have disputed some of Shermer&#8217;s posts because there were elements of his theories that didn&#8217;t make sense or contradicted known facts. Occasionally, the information Shermer presented was simply incomplete, such as the information concerning Chagnon&#8217;s ethnography. The result of incomplete information is that it can be misleading. Whether this is intentional or not- I can&#8217;t say.<br />
It certainly has nothing to do with whether or not I like Shermer or his politics. In fact, Shermer was one of my heroes- but heroes can still be wrong.<br />
I resent your attempt to dissuade criticisms by lumping us into a group with some hazy, barely articulated group agenda. We&#8217;re all in a canoe that&#8217;s headed presumably in the same direction? I thought that the goal was to cut through nonsense and reach facts. To use your analogy, objective factual reality would be our shore.<br />
We may all be in the same canoe, and some parties may be paddling like heck, but in my opinion they&#8217;re paddling in the opposite direction when they post garbage science. Paddling like heck BACKWARDS isn&#8217;t helpful to anyone&#8217;s cause.<br />
What are our goals as a group, if not to question and challenge?<br />
As to your argument about bringing an issue to the offending party privately, rather than publicly, I say this: If they were saying it privately, I would be more than happy to address it privately. If the information has already been disseminated to the public in whatever form, then I am no longer addressing the offending party- I&#8217;m addressing the public reading the information.<br />
In my opinion, the scientists who post on this blog (and others)already had ample time to get their facts straight and review their post. If they failed to do so then that&#8217;s unfortunate, but their readers shouldn&#8217;t have to pay the difference.</p>
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		<title>By: Devil's Advocate</title>
		<link>http://www.skepticblog.org/2009/10/05/skeptic-on-skeptic/#comment-13820</link>
		<dc:creator>Devil's Advocate</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Oct 2009 01:48:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skepticblog.org/?p=4626#comment-13820</guid>
		<description>If we numbered 100, all in agreement, 99 would be unnecessary.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If we numbered 100, all in agreement, 99 would be unnecessary.</p>
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		<title>By: tmac57</title>
		<link>http://www.skepticblog.org/2009/10/05/skeptic-on-skeptic/#comment-13796</link>
		<dc:creator>tmac57</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Oct 2009 15:14:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skepticblog.org/?p=4626#comment-13796</guid>
		<description>Robert, for my part, I would just say &quot;come on in the waters fine!&quot; , just don&#039;t expect to go unchallenged. The main thing that I expect from participants is civility and intellectual honesty, not necessarily agreement.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Robert, for my part, I would just say &#8220;come on in the waters fine!&#8221; , just don&#8217;t expect to go unchallenged. The main thing that I expect from participants is civility and intellectual honesty, not necessarily agreement.</p>
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		<title>By: Robert Kirkman</title>
		<link>http://www.skepticblog.org/2009/10/05/skeptic-on-skeptic/#comment-13793</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert Kirkman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Oct 2009 13:43:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skepticblog.org/?p=4626#comment-13793</guid>
		<description>Max,

In other words, I should go away and leave you alone?

The thing is, I&#039;m generally supportive of the aims of the (narrow) &quot;skeptical movement&quot;, even if I&#039;m . . .um . . . skeptical of some of the dogmatic epistemological and, yes, metaphysical commitments of many of its most prominent adherents.  (Scientific naturalism is a metaphysical doctrine, dress it up as you will.)

My question, stemming from this post and its predecessor, was only whether it&#039;s okay for self-described scientific skeptics and their fellow travelers to bring up this sort of thing in public, to question or criticize one another on these grounds.

From the replies I&#039;ve received, I&#039;d have to say the answer is &quot;no&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Max,</p>
<p>In other words, I should go away and leave you alone?</p>
<p>The thing is, I&#8217;m generally supportive of the aims of the (narrow) &#8220;skeptical movement&#8221;, even if I&#8217;m . . .um . . . skeptical of some of the dogmatic epistemological and, yes, metaphysical commitments of many of its most prominent adherents.  (Scientific naturalism is a metaphysical doctrine, dress it up as you will.)</p>
<p>My question, stemming from this post and its predecessor, was only whether it&#8217;s okay for self-described scientific skeptics and their fellow travelers to bring up this sort of thing in public, to question or criticize one another on these grounds.</p>
<p>From the replies I&#8217;ve received, I&#8217;d have to say the answer is &#8220;no&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Max</title>
		<link>http://www.skepticblog.org/2009/10/05/skeptic-on-skeptic/#comment-13792</link>
		<dc:creator>Max</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Oct 2009 13:14:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skepticblog.org/?p=4626#comment-13792</guid>
		<description>Robert, the &quot;freethinking&quot; community may be a better fit for you.
http://www.centerforinquiry.net

The skeptic movement, I hope, promotes scientific skepticism, not philosophical skepticism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skepticism
&quot;Empirical or scientific skeptics do not profess philosophical skepticism. Whereas a philosophical skeptic may deny the very existence of knowledge, an empirical skeptic merely seeks likely proof before accepting that knowledge.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Robert, the &#8220;freethinking&#8221; community may be a better fit for you.<br />
<a href="http://www.centerforinquiry.net" rel="nofollow">http://www.centerforinquiry.net</a></p>
<p>The skeptic movement, I hope, promotes scientific skepticism, not philosophical skepticism.<br />
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skepticism" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skepticism</a><br />
&#8220;Empirical or scientific skeptics do not profess philosophical skepticism. Whereas a philosophical skeptic may deny the very existence of knowledge, an empirical skeptic merely seeks likely proof before accepting that knowledge.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Robert Kirkman</title>
		<link>http://www.skepticblog.org/2009/10/05/skeptic-on-skeptic/#comment-13786</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert Kirkman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Oct 2009 04:35:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skepticblog.org/?p=4626#comment-13786</guid>
		<description>Daniel Loxton wrote: &quot;But in any event we’re getting very far off topic from Steven’s post. Perhaps another venue at another time?&quot;

I think my questions germane, in that I was trying to find the limit cases of skeptics criticizing other skeptics, in public or in private.  

But I&#039;ll stop now.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Daniel Loxton wrote: &#8220;But in any event we’re getting very far off topic from Steven’s post. Perhaps another venue at another time?&#8221;</p>
<p>I think my questions germane, in that I was trying to find the limit cases of skeptics criticizing other skeptics, in public or in private.  </p>
<p>But I&#8217;ll stop now.</p>
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		<title>By: kabol</title>
		<link>http://www.skepticblog.org/2009/10/05/skeptic-on-skeptic/#comment-13776</link>
		<dc:creator>kabol</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Oct 2009 23:50:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skepticblog.org/?p=4626#comment-13776</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;The skeptical movement when I enlisted in the late 1960s...&lt;/em&gt;  

and here i had you pegged as a witty young whippersnapper.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>The skeptical movement when I enlisted in the late 1960s&#8230;</em>  </p>
<p>and here i had you pegged as a witty young whippersnapper.</p>
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		<title>By: Loxton</title>
		<link>http://www.skepticblog.org/2009/10/05/skeptic-on-skeptic/#comment-13774</link>
		<dc:creator>Loxton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Oct 2009 23:23:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skepticblog.org/?p=4626#comment-13774</guid>
		<description>Robert Kirkman says:

&lt;blockquote&gt;I am trying to ask about the scope of the meaning of the term “skepticism”, and you reply by brushing my question aside with the assertion of a very narrow understanding of what skepticism can be.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I don&#039;t wish to sound dismissive. It just happens that I actually advocate a very narrow understanding of what skepticism should be. 

There are many schools of thought on this topic. I am one of those who favor a very focussed, traditional view: the skeptics movement as an organized attempt to A) promote science literacy, and B) pursue consumer protection in regards to paranormal and pseudoscientific claims (investigation of claims, publication of results, consumer advocacy and lobbying based on that literature). You can &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.skeptic.com/downloads/WhereDoWeGoFromHere.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;read an essay&lt;/a&gt;  in which I make my pitch for that limited scope for skepticism. But in any event we&#039;re getting very far off topic from Steven&#039;s post. Perhaps another venue at another time?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Robert Kirkman says:</p>
<blockquote><p>I am trying to ask about the scope of the meaning of the term “skepticism”, and you reply by brushing my question aside with the assertion of a very narrow understanding of what skepticism can be.</p></blockquote>
<p>I don&#8217;t wish to sound dismissive. It just happens that I actually advocate a very narrow understanding of what skepticism should be. </p>
<p>There are many schools of thought on this topic. I am one of those who favor a very focussed, traditional view: the skeptics movement as an organized attempt to A) promote science literacy, and B) pursue consumer protection in regards to paranormal and pseudoscientific claims (investigation of claims, publication of results, consumer advocacy and lobbying based on that literature). You can <a href="http://www.skeptic.com/downloads/WhereDoWeGoFromHere.pdf" rel="nofollow">read an essay</a>  in which I make my pitch for that limited scope for skepticism. But in any event we&#8217;re getting very far off topic from Steven&#8217;s post. Perhaps another venue at another time?</p>
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		<title>By: Robert Kirkman</title>
		<link>http://www.skepticblog.org/2009/10/05/skeptic-on-skeptic/#comment-13770</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert Kirkman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Oct 2009 22:43:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skepticblog.org/?p=4626#comment-13770</guid>
		<description>Well, what are we doing here?  We&#039;re trying to work out the scope and meaning of an abstract concept. More deeply, we&#039;re trying to answer questions about what&#039;s real and about whether and how we can get access to what&#039;s real.

These are not scientific questions, and we cannot answer them by an appeal to empirical fact.  We have to think, and discuss; offer arguments and replies, attempt to reframe the problem as possible; eventually, we may seek some common ground.

That discourse can be skeptical, I would say, as long a we unwilling to settle for obvious answers, as long as we are willing to ask the next, more difficult question, as long as we demand clear thinking and cogent argument.

(This is how I approach my own field of study, environmental ethics, much to the annoyance of my colleagues.  I won&#039;t let the simply posit, for example, that anthropocentrism is bad.)

I am also unwilling to accept dogmatic empiricism or positivism in approach to questions about the scope and limits of human understanding.  

So, what dogmas are you (all) harboring?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, what are we doing here?  We&#8217;re trying to work out the scope and meaning of an abstract concept. More deeply, we&#8217;re trying to answer questions about what&#8217;s real and about whether and how we can get access to what&#8217;s real.</p>
<p>These are not scientific questions, and we cannot answer them by an appeal to empirical fact.  We have to think, and discuss; offer arguments and replies, attempt to reframe the problem as possible; eventually, we may seek some common ground.</p>
<p>That discourse can be skeptical, I would say, as long a we unwilling to settle for obvious answers, as long as we are willing to ask the next, more difficult question, as long as we demand clear thinking and cogent argument.</p>
<p>(This is how I approach my own field of study, environmental ethics, much to the annoyance of my colleagues.  I won&#8217;t let the simply posit, for example, that anthropocentrism is bad.)</p>
<p>I am also unwilling to accept dogmatic empiricism or positivism in approach to questions about the scope and limits of human understanding.  </p>
<p>So, what dogmas are you (all) harboring?</p>
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