Comments on: Fear & Loathing (and Freedom & Skepticism) in Las Vegas http://www.skepticblog.org/2009/07/14/freedom-and-skepticism-in-las-vegas/ The official blog of the Skeptologists Sun, 12 Feb 2012 15:44:42 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: TryUsingLogic http://www.skepticblog.org/2009/07/14/freedom-and-skepticism-in-las-vegas/#comment-10269 TryUsingLogic Sat, 25 Jul 2009 13:22:35 +0000 http://skepticblog.org/?p=3368#comment-10269 Webster's..Government.... 1: the act or process of governing ; specifically : authoritative direction or control. Government control is a matter of degree and hopefully in a free liberal democaracy it would be at a minimum. "Nonetheless, socialism as an ideology and a program is a route to power, regardless of its universal failures and technical impossibilities. People are eager to help others, be part of a movement to do good, and to feel involved. Disguise the program with feel good rhetoric—social justice, equality, shared responsibility, hope, change, and helping the poor (Sound familiar?). Raise consciousness by characterizing the status quo as in crisis with impending disaster; as unjust and unfair; and as a system of exploitation. Then, socialism can win, as it has with Obama, be empowered, and then utterly fail." http://rudyrummel.blogspot.com/2009/07/no-matter-socialist-economy-impossible.html I'm sorry my style offends your sensitivities. I have noticed when someone disagrees with direction of a discussion on blogs they call the person on the other side a "troll." The main topic of discussion in the news is if Obama's agenda will be "unreasonably burdensome or severe." Do you keep up with the news? Even though I have enjoyed this discussion I won't further question your random opinons [backed up by amazing data and logic] on this very important topic. Have a nice day. TryUsingLogic Webster’s..Government…. 1: the act or process of governing ; specifically : authoritative direction or control.

Government control is a matter of degree and hopefully in a free liberal democaracy it would be at a minimum.

“Nonetheless, socialism as an ideology and a program is a route to power, regardless of its universal failures and technical impossibilities. People are eager to help others, be part of a movement to do good, and to feel involved. Disguise the program with feel good rhetoric—social justice, equality, shared responsibility, hope, change, and helping the poor (Sound familiar?). Raise consciousness by characterizing the status quo as in crisis with impending disaster; as unjust and unfair; and as a system of exploitation. Then, socialism can win, as it has with Obama, be empowered, and then utterly fail.”
http://rudyrummel.blogspot.com/2009/07/no-matter-socialist-economy-impossible.html

I’m sorry my style offends your sensitivities. I have noticed when someone disagrees with direction of a discussion on blogs they call the person on the other side a “troll.” The main topic of discussion in the news is if Obama’s agenda will be “unreasonably burdensome or severe.” Do you keep up with the news?

Even though I have enjoyed this discussion I won’t further question your random opinons [backed up by amazing data and logic] on this very important topic.

Have a nice day.

TryUsingLogic

]]> By: Bertrand Le Roy http://www.skepticblog.org/2009/07/14/freedom-and-skepticism-in-las-vegas/#comment-10267 Bertrand Le Roy Sat, 25 Jul 2009 06:31:37 +0000 http://skepticblog.org/?p=3368#comment-10267 It could be an interesting discussion without the rhetorical tricks you use to rathole the debate. I love to debate, but there is sometimes a point in a discussion where one has to realize that someone is just there to distort and troll: TUL: "Government by definition is oppressive" BLR: "Nope. Oppressive means “tyrannical, unreasonably burdensome or severe”. That doesn’t apply to any true democratic government [...], by definition." TUL: "“unreasonably burdensome or severe” is what we are facing right now with Hugo Obama’s government takeover" BLR: "“Takeover”? Are you saying he used the force to take hold of power? that is an extraordinary claim that will require some extraordinary evidence…" TUL: "[you] present no facts." Well, you're making the extraordinary claims on Obama ("takeover"), so the facts are yours to present. It is ok to say you shouldn't have used those words. There's also how you cite evidence from a source, but cherry-pick the data, then ignore the questions that raises. I have not been advocating at any time that the EU or Russia (or US) had the best system or that they were a model to follow. I was just pointing out -repeatedly- that by the same metrics that you were citing, other countries that have different systems were doing just as well or even better, which begs for a better explanation than the one-dimensional one you've been hammering. Again, that's not an endorsement of a particular system, just an encouragement to look at all the data, and then accept and embrace its complexity. Another thing that has been discussed very little here is the cultural aspect, because most commenters are from the US but that is one more source of complexity. Not to say that we should shy away from analyzing the data, but acknowledging the complexity is necessary to understand and harness it. It could be an interesting discussion without the rhetorical tricks you use to rathole the debate. I love to debate, but there is sometimes a point in a discussion where one has to realize that someone is just there to distort and troll:
TUL: “Government by definition is oppressive”
BLR: “Nope. Oppressive means “tyrannical, unreasonably burdensome or severe”. That doesn’t apply to any true democratic government [...], by definition.”
TUL: ““unreasonably burdensome or severe” is what we are facing right now with Hugo Obama’s government takeover”
BLR: ““Takeover”? Are you saying he used the force to take hold of power? that is an extraordinary claim that will require some extraordinary evidence…”
TUL: “[you] present no facts.”
Well, you’re making the extraordinary claims on Obama (“takeover”), so the facts are yours to present. It is ok to say you shouldn’t have used those words.
There’s also how you cite evidence from a source, but cherry-pick the data, then ignore the questions that raises. I have not been advocating at any time that the EU or Russia (or US) had the best system or that they were a model to follow. I was just pointing out -repeatedly- that by the same metrics that you were citing, other countries that have different systems were doing just as well or even better, which begs for a better explanation than the one-dimensional one you’ve been hammering. Again, that’s not an endorsement of a particular system, just an encouragement to look at all the data, and then accept and embrace its complexity. Another thing that has been discussed very little here is the cultural aspect, because most commenters are from the US but that is one more source of complexity. Not to say that we should shy away from analyzing the data, but acknowledging the complexity is necessary to understand and harness it.

]]> By: TryUsingLogic http://www.skepticblog.org/2009/07/14/freedom-and-skepticism-in-las-vegas/#comment-10243 TryUsingLogic Fri, 24 Jul 2009 13:51:22 +0000 http://skepticblog.org/?p=3368#comment-10243 @Bertrand Le Roy My statements are based on comments you make. You said..." For example, most European countries do better than the US on number of people under the poverty line, Russia does better on higher education, I could go on." I said, overall America is far better off than most countries if you look at the stats. If you think taking over General Motors and Chrysler instead of letting them go through our our regular bankruptcy process and then jumping into the trillions for budgets and the largest deficits we have never even dreamed of, is not overwhelming government control.....dream on. If you think a government appointed Special Master for Compensation to monitor and regulate private companies finances is not government control....dream on. It is fact that Social Security, Medicare, Welfare, the Post Office, Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac...etc... are all failures and have gone bankrupt or soon will be....a view of government management. It is fact that IBM, Intel, Microsoft, Apple, are strong companies still showing profits and security for employees and investors. There are adequate facts and data to inform any critical thinker that it is a bad decision to trust management of healthcare and other services to goverment. Obama is using his popular mandate to impose more government on us if he can. It appears that more and more people every day recognize this and his favorable polls are falling. We should hope that democracy and our freedom to vote will eventually stop or turn around his plans for a government Utopia. We do have the power of democracy on our side...it has effectively removed failing presidents in the past. We were once the world's shining light for freedom. liberal democracy and capitalism....as we try to become more socialist like the EU we will fluctuate and fall to some mediocre standing. By becoming like the EU we are simply lowering the bar! The best way to help poor people is to have an economy that can offer them jobs...if they want one. That should be a fact! You say my rhetoric is out of touch and then you make statements like..."Your rhetoric about Obama just shows how out of touch with reality you are."....and then present no facts. I'm not judging you, I'm discussing important issues with you.....and I appreciate the debate. Then again, I’m not expecting you to use any form of logic to answer this… maybe you are the one not listening? TryUsinlogic @Bertrand Le Roy
My statements are based on comments you make. You said…”
For example, most European countries do better than the US on number of people under the poverty line, Russia does better on higher education, I could go on.” I said, overall America is far better off than most countries if you look at the stats.

If you think taking over General Motors and Chrysler instead of letting them go through our our regular bankruptcy process and then jumping into the trillions for budgets and the largest deficits we have never even dreamed of, is not overwhelming government control…..dream on. If you think a government appointed Special Master for Compensation to monitor and regulate private companies finances is not government control….dream on. It is fact that Social Security, Medicare, Welfare, the Post Office, Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac…etc… are all failures and have gone bankrupt or soon will be….a view of government management. It is fact that IBM, Intel, Microsoft, Apple, are strong companies still showing profits and security for employees and investors.

There are adequate facts and data to inform any critical thinker that it is a bad decision to trust management of healthcare and other services to goverment.

Obama is using his popular mandate to impose more government on us if he can. It appears that more and more people every day recognize this and his favorable polls are falling. We should hope that democracy and our freedom to vote will eventually stop or turn around his plans for a government Utopia. We do have the power of democracy on our side…it has effectively removed failing presidents in the past.

We were once the world’s shining light for freedom. liberal democracy and capitalism….as we try to become more socialist like the EU we will fluctuate and fall to some mediocre standing. By becoming like the EU we are simply lowering the bar!

The best way to help poor people is to have an economy that can offer them jobs…if they want one. That should be a fact!

You say my rhetoric is out of touch and then you make statements like…”Your rhetoric about Obama just shows how out of touch with reality you are.”….and then present no facts.

I’m not judging you, I’m discussing important issues with
you…..and I appreciate the debate.

Then again, I’m not expecting you to use any form of logic to answer this… maybe you are the one not listening?

TryUsinlogic

]]> By: Bertrand Le Roy http://www.skepticblog.org/2009/07/14/freedom-and-skepticism-in-las-vegas/#comment-10236 Bertrand Le Roy Fri, 24 Jul 2009 04:49:57 +0000 http://skepticblog.org/?p=3368#comment-10236 You're making my point exactly without even realizing it. It is very hard to have any meaningful conversation with you because you start with assumptions on what people's position must be. Someone could agree fully with you, you would still be looking for ways to prove them wrong. For some reason you seem to assume I'm defending the Russian or even North Korean system. Probably because you're actually not listening to anyone but yourself. The US has indeed been very successful on many accounts, I don't remember saying otherwise. It doesn't mean that it's perfect and can't be improved. Quality of life is indeed an interesting metric (and one I'd pick myself) where the US do very well but France does a little better. It also does a lot better in terms of number of poor people according to OECD and on many unexpected criteria such as productivity. Which proves that there are many factors that contribute to all those metrics: France does not have any less regulations or a weaker government than the US, its public educational system is much better than its private system, it has universal healthcare that is not privately owned, I could go on. Your rhetoric about Obama just shows how out of touch with reality you are. "Takeover"? Are you saying he used the force to take hold of power? that is an extraordinary claim that will require some extraordinary evidence... Then again, I'm not expecting you to use any form of logic to answer this... You’re making my point exactly without even realizing it. It is very hard to have any meaningful conversation with you because you start with assumptions on what people’s position must be. Someone could agree fully with you, you would still be looking for ways to prove them wrong. For some reason you seem to assume I’m defending the Russian or even North Korean system. Probably because you’re actually not listening to anyone but yourself.
The US has indeed been very successful on many accounts, I don’t remember saying otherwise. It doesn’t mean that it’s perfect and can’t be improved. Quality of life is indeed an interesting metric (and one I’d pick myself) where the US do very well but France does a little better. It also does a lot better in terms of number of poor people according to OECD and on many unexpected criteria such as productivity. Which proves that there are many factors that contribute to all those metrics: France does not have any less regulations or a weaker government than the US, its public educational system is much better than its private system, it has universal healthcare that is not privately owned, I could go on.
Your rhetoric about Obama just shows how out of touch with reality you are. “Takeover”? Are you saying he used the force to take hold of power? that is an extraordinary claim that will require some extraordinary evidence…
Then again, I’m not expecting you to use any form of logic to answer this…

]]> By: TryUsingLogic http://www.skepticblog.org/2009/07/14/freedom-and-skepticism-in-las-vegas/#comment-10199 TryUsingLogic Thu, 23 Jul 2009 12:50:39 +0000 http://skepticblog.org/?p=3368#comment-10199 Common sense is mean? Most people in America do much better than EU countries on prosperity. Simply compare the per captita income of Russia and the lack of freedom as compared to the US. Look at stats on quality of life..... http://www.il-ireland.com/il/qofl2009/ Your argument does not hold up on the big picture since Russia is near the bottom and most EU countries are below America. It is foolish to deny that America has been the most successful nation that has ever existed for the good of most of the people.......Especially when you add in that it has taken our prosperity and strengths to defend others agains totalitariansim and fascism. "unreasonably burdensome or severe" is what we are facing right now with Hugo Obama's government takeover. If you don't see that.....keep wearing those rose colored glasses! Our education falilure is caused by failed government management and regulation. TryUsingLogic Common sense is mean? Most people in America do much better than EU countries on prosperity. Simply compare the per captita income of Russia and the lack of freedom as compared to the US.

Look at stats on quality of life…..
http://www.il-ireland.com/il/qofl2009/

Your argument does not hold up on the big picture since Russia is near the bottom and most EU countries are below America.

It is foolish to deny that America has been the most successful nation that has ever existed for the good of most of the people…….Especially when you add in that it has taken our prosperity and strengths to defend others agains totalitariansim and fascism.

“unreasonably burdensome or severe” is what we are facing right now with Hugo Obama’s government takeover. If you don’t see that…..keep wearing those rose colored glasses!

Our education falilure is caused by failed government management and regulation.

TryUsingLogic

]]> By: Bertrand Le Roy http://www.skepticblog.org/2009/07/14/freedom-and-skepticism-in-las-vegas/#comment-10187 Bertrand Le Roy Thu, 23 Jul 2009 07:32:54 +0000 http://skepticblog.org/?p=3368#comment-10187 Why so mean? what did I do to deserve the "live on a different planet" thing? The problem with answering "all of those things" is that those are not strictly correlated. Countries with various regimes succeed better or worse on some of those, not on others. For example, most European countries do better than the US on number of people under the poverty line, Russia does better on higher education, I could go on. Point being, there is no single country that is leading on all fronts, and also no single factor that perfectly correlates with all criteria. Things are a lot more complex and subtle than that. Democracy and free markets? Duh, those are prerequisites. "Government by definition is oppressive"? Nope. Oppressive means "tyrannical, unreasonably burdensome or severe". That doesn't apply to any true democratic government I know, by definition. Why so mean? what did I do to deserve the “live on a different planet” thing?
The problem with answering “all of those things” is that those are not strictly correlated. Countries with various regimes succeed better or worse on some of those, not on others. For example, most European countries do better than the US on number of people under the poverty line, Russia does better on higher education, I could go on. Point being, there is no single country that is leading on all fronts, and also no single factor that perfectly correlates with all criteria. Things are a lot more complex and subtle than that. Democracy and free markets? Duh, those are prerequisites.
“Government by definition is oppressive”? Nope. Oppressive means “tyrannical, unreasonably burdensome or severe”. That doesn’t apply to any true democratic government I know, by definition.

]]> By: TryUsingLogic http://www.skepticblog.org/2009/07/14/freedom-and-skepticism-in-las-vegas/#comment-10182 TryUsingLogic Thu, 23 Jul 2009 04:44:57 +0000 http://skepticblog.org/?p=3368#comment-10182 "Bertrand Le Roy says: July 22, 2009 at 12:27 am So what are your criteria? GDP per capita? Happiness? Level of education? Average buying power? Cultural and scientific production? Commercial balance? Individual freedom? Number of registered patents? Average revenue? What is the one metric you would pick to measure success and efficiency of a regime?" You must live on a different planet that I do. All of those things. The criteria is all things that affect our individual liberties, universal rights freedom and happiness. These things are well defined. Government by definition is oppressive. What matters is to what degree a government oppresses or controls our actions to benifit their power. There is an obvious sliding scale from socialism and government control on the left to capitalism, freedom and less government intervention on the right. If one cannot recognize the factors that describe the differnces then it is probably worthless to discuss this. Wouldn't you agree that a totalitarian socialist government that prevents free and fair elections is all powerful and that a democratic government that changes constantly thru local and national elections every 2 to 4 years is limited power subject to control of its citizens? Obviously our Presidents aren't all powerful because they serve for 8 years...if they are lucky! My criteria are all the things that scientists study that pertain to quality of life as recognized by the definitions of the universal rights of man. There are some things about life that should be more obvious than many skeptics want to see! TryUsingLogic “Bertrand Le Roy says:
July 22, 2009 at 12:27 am
So what are your criteria? GDP per capita? Happiness? Level of education? Average buying power? Cultural and scientific production? Commercial balance? Individual freedom? Number of registered patents? Average revenue?
What is the one metric you would pick to measure success and efficiency of a regime?”

You must live on a different planet that I do. All of those things. The criteria is all things that affect our individual liberties, universal rights freedom and happiness. These things are well defined.

Government by definition is oppressive. What matters is to what degree a government oppresses or controls our actions to benifit their power. There is an obvious sliding scale from socialism and government control on the left to capitalism, freedom and less government intervention on the right. If one cannot recognize the factors that describe the differnces then it is probably worthless to discuss this. Wouldn’t you agree that a totalitarian socialist government that prevents free and fair elections is all powerful and that a democratic government that changes constantly thru local and national elections every 2 to 4 years is limited power subject to control of its citizens? Obviously our Presidents aren’t all powerful because they serve for 8 years…if they are lucky!

My criteria are all the things that scientists study that pertain to quality of life as recognized by the definitions of the universal rights of man.

There are some things about life that should be more obvious than many skeptics want to see!

TryUsingLogic

]]> By: Devil's Advocate http://www.skepticblog.org/2009/07/14/freedom-and-skepticism-in-las-vegas/#comment-10144 Devil's Advocate Wed, 22 Jul 2009 13:53:07 +0000 http://skepticblog.org/?p=3368#comment-10144 I only advise that you review why you pick one set of historical data over a set that opposes, when both have been rigorously researched. I enjoy banging these ideas around too and laud you for not LTD-ing me like so many do. LTD: "Label Then Dismiss" - when someone in an argument or discussion will strive to label the opponent as a liberal, conservative, whatever, and then dismisses their arguments because they emit from a liberal, conservative, whatever. You see it in skepticism - remember skepticism, the topic of this blog (lol)? - when some Ufie objects to proffered evidence: "Oh, that's just a Humbert Q. Farzensloggen article - he's a known skeptic! You can't believe him!" LTD. I only advise that you review why you pick one set of historical data over a set that opposes, when both have been rigorously researched.

I enjoy banging these ideas around too and laud you for not LTD-ing me like so many do.

LTD: “Label Then Dismiss” – when someone in an argument or discussion will strive to label the opponent as a liberal, conservative, whatever, and then dismisses their arguments because they emit from a liberal, conservative, whatever.

You see it in skepticism – remember skepticism, the topic of this blog (lol)? – when some Ufie objects to proffered evidence: “Oh, that’s just a Humbert Q. Farzensloggen article – he’s a known skeptic! You can’t believe him!” LTD.

]]> By: Bertrand Le Roy http://www.skepticblog.org/2009/07/14/freedom-and-skepticism-in-las-vegas/#comment-10118 Bertrand Le Roy Wed, 22 Jul 2009 04:27:01 +0000 http://skepticblog.org/?p=3368#comment-10118 So what are your criteria? GDP per capita? Happiness? Level of education? Average buying power? Cultural and scientific production? Commercial balance? Individual freedom? Number of registered patents? Average revenue? What is the one metric you would pick to measure success and efficiency of a regime? As a side note, I can tell you for sure that a communist totalitarian regime is not as good as a democracy not just based on measures of success that I care about (although they pretty much all point in the same direction) but also because freedom is something I value as an fundamental virtue (as well as the rest of Human Rights), which is an opinion but I think it's all right to have and defend opinions of that type. As for powerful government, it must also be defined. What do you call powerful government? Would you say for example that the federal government is powerful (and thus according to you oppressive)? Would you say the EU commission is? The Russian government? Where do you draw the line where it becomes oppressive? It would be interesting to draw a map of the world according to metrics that liberals, conservatives, centrists and libertarians respectively care about. Is there any overlap for example? So what are your criteria? GDP per capita? Happiness? Level of education? Average buying power? Cultural and scientific production? Commercial balance? Individual freedom? Number of registered patents? Average revenue?
What is the one metric you would pick to measure success and efficiency of a regime?
As a side note, I can tell you for sure that a communist totalitarian regime is not as good as a democracy not just based on measures of success that I care about (although they pretty much all point in the same direction) but also because freedom is something I value as an fundamental virtue (as well as the rest of Human Rights), which is an opinion but I think it’s all right to have and defend opinions of that type.
As for powerful government, it must also be defined. What do you call powerful government? Would you say for example that the federal government is powerful (and thus according to you oppressive)? Would you say the EU commission is? The Russian government? Where do you draw the line where it becomes oppressive?
It would be interesting to draw a map of the world according to metrics that liberals, conservatives, centrists and libertarians respectively care about. Is there any overlap for example?

]]> By: TryUsingLogic http://www.skepticblog.org/2009/07/14/freedom-and-skepticism-in-las-vegas/#comment-10087 TryUsingLogic Tue, 21 Jul 2009 19:43:56 +0000 http://skepticblog.org/?p=3368#comment-10087 @Bertrand Le Roy "I think the debate should be on what criteria we use to judge the success or failure of a given system and then on what works best to optimally reach a successful state." That is exactly what this debate is about. We have been debating if there is scientific research available to refine our data about governments. I say there is and give references to true scientific research studies.....others say there is no data and simply repeat personal opinion and say there is no research available or it is biased. And if you can tell me for sure that a Communist totalitarian regime is not as good as democracy and free trade that must be based on data that can be further refined. But there are people on this blog that do not think free trade is a good thing or that poereful government is oppresive. There is much to argue here using the science and facts available to us! I believe that is the case Shermer presents in "The Mind of The Market." TryUsingLogic @Bertrand Le Roy
“I think the debate should be on what criteria we use to judge the success or failure of a given system and then on what works best to optimally reach a successful state.”

That is exactly what this debate is about. We have been debating if there is scientific research available to refine our data about governments.

I say there is and give references to true scientific research studies…..others say there is no data and simply repeat personal opinion and say there is no research available or it is biased.

And if you can tell me for sure that a Communist totalitarian regime is not as good as democracy and free trade that must be based on data that can be further refined. But there are people on this blog that do not think free trade is a good thing or that poereful government is oppresive.

There is much to argue here using the science and facts available to us! I believe that is the case Shermer presents in “The Mind of The Market.”

TryUsingLogic

]]>