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	<title>Comments on: Why Darwin Matters to Creationists</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.skepticblog.org/2009/04/07/why-darwin-matters-to-creationists/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.skepticblog.org/2009/04/07/why-darwin-matters-to-creationists/</link>
	<description>The official blog of the Skeptologists</description>
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		<title>By: Febe</title>
		<link>http://www.skepticblog.org/2009/04/07/why-darwin-matters-to-creationists/#comment-21178</link>
		<dc:creator>Febe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 May 2010 23:52:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skepticblog.org/?p=1960#comment-21178</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s through Methodological naturalism that the conclusion should be Creation and not chance. You can,t put God in a test tube, true, but you can put all your Conclusions and theories in one and the conclusion points to an intelligent designer, not chance. Cause and effect. what started the process,and when you find out, then what caused it, then when you have figured out its origin, than what started that process ,ect.If you say that it started on its own then it is chance and Logically logic laughs at such a notion. It&#039;s scientifically in possible.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s through Methodological naturalism that the conclusion should be Creation and not chance. You can,t put God in a test tube, true, but you can put all your Conclusions and theories in one and the conclusion points to an intelligent designer, not chance. Cause and effect. what started the process,and when you find out, then what caused it, then when you have figured out its origin, than what started that process ,ect.If you say that it started on its own then it is chance and Logically logic laughs at such a notion. It&#8217;s scientifically in possible.</p>
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		<title>By: Kennypo65</title>
		<link>http://www.skepticblog.org/2009/04/07/why-darwin-matters-to-creationists/#comment-16641</link>
		<dc:creator>Kennypo65</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Jan 2010 07:04:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skepticblog.org/?p=1960#comment-16641</guid>
		<description>Does anyone else find it odd that Fundamentalists believe that the bible is the absolute truth, yet also believe in the rapture. The rapture is not in the bible, but is an 19th century invention.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Does anyone else find it odd that Fundamentalists believe that the bible is the absolute truth, yet also believe in the rapture. The rapture is not in the bible, but is an 19th century invention.</p>
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		<title>By: Devil's Advocate</title>
		<link>http://www.skepticblog.org/2009/04/07/why-darwin-matters-to-creationists/#comment-5431</link>
		<dc:creator>Devil's Advocate</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Apr 2009 17:43:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skepticblog.org/?p=1960#comment-5431</guid>
		<description>Not to mention which God.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not to mention which God.</p>
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		<title>By: tmac57</title>
		<link>http://www.skepticblog.org/2009/04/07/why-darwin-matters-to-creationists/#comment-5392</link>
		<dc:creator>tmac57</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Apr 2009 01:20:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skepticblog.org/?p=1960#comment-5392</guid>
		<description>Pascal also committed the false dichotomy fallacy. Why is the choice only between God as commonly understood, and no God?. Why not at least one other possibility of say an anti God ? That is to say,one that would give you eternal life only if you did not believe in Pascal&#039;s God. You could devise other such scenarios endlessly, but you get the idea.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pascal also committed the false dichotomy fallacy. Why is the choice only between God as commonly understood, and no God?. Why not at least one other possibility of say an anti God ? That is to say,one that would give you eternal life only if you did not believe in Pascal&#8217;s God. You could devise other such scenarios endlessly, but you get the idea.</p>
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		<title>By: Morgan-LynnGriggs Lamberth</title>
		<link>http://www.skepticblog.org/2009/04/07/why-darwin-matters-to-creationists/#comment-5391</link>
		<dc:creator>Morgan-LynnGriggs Lamberth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Apr 2009 22:45:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skepticblog.org/?p=1960#comment-5391</guid>
		<description>Sorry for the typos. apes&#039; protections horse, life
  it has only one horse [rather than no horse]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry for the typos. apes&#8217; protections horse, life<br />
  it has only one horse [rather than no horse]</p>
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		<title>By: Morgan-LynnGriggs Lamberth</title>
		<link>http://www.skepticblog.org/2009/04/07/why-darwin-matters-to-creationists/#comment-5390</link>
		<dc:creator>Morgan-LynnGriggs Lamberth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Apr 2009 22:42:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skepticblog.org/?p=1960#comment-5390</guid>
		<description>Yea, Ukomkasia! We are great apes! Please support the Great Ape Project to enhance other great apes protecitions as New Zealand and Spain now do!
  The trouble with the Wager is that it has no horse! In horse races, there are more than one horse, such than one of them can win whereas with the Wager there is only the horse. life as we know it. Without any other horse ,this one wins by default.
  And thanks to PZ Myers, William B. Provine and Jerry Coyne for their efforts to make known that the real debate is between secular reason and faith rather than between creationism and science! Theistic evolution is an oxymoron.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yea, Ukomkasia! We are great apes! Please support the Great Ape Project to enhance other great apes protecitions as New Zealand and Spain now do!<br />
  The trouble with the Wager is that it has no horse! In horse races, there are more than one horse, such than one of them can win whereas with the Wager there is only the horse. life as we know it. Without any other horse ,this one wins by default.<br />
  And thanks to PZ Myers, William B. Provine and Jerry Coyne for their efforts to make known that the real debate is between secular reason and faith rather than between creationism and science! Theistic evolution is an oxymoron.</p>
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		<title>By: epicurus</title>
		<link>http://www.skepticblog.org/2009/04/07/why-darwin-matters-to-creationists/#comment-5325</link>
		<dc:creator>epicurus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Apr 2009 08:03:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skepticblog.org/?p=1960#comment-5325</guid>
		<description>Is God falsifiable? 

My hypothesis is there’s no need to disprove an imaginary thing, which we have absolutely no factual knowledge of, because the probability of its existence is in principle nil. Having no factual knowledge means the possibilities are endless or without constraints. The probability that one possibility is true out of an infinite number of possibilities is one divided by infinity equals zero. There’s a need to prove or at least gain some factual knowledge of the imaginary thing to make its probability non-zero.

A good example is dark matter. It is also an imaginary thing but our factual knowledge is not zero. We know something about dark matter like it has mass because it exerts gravitational force to the stars; it is not luminous because we cannot see it with optical telescopes; it does not emit strong or any electromagnetic waves because we cannot detect it with radio telescopes; its mass cannot exceed the total mass of the universe; it is made up of natural matters that obey the laws of physics, etc. In short, there are constraints to dark matter hence the possibilities are finite and the probability is non-zero. In contrast, everything we know about God is not factual but completely speculative, the product of pure imaginations.

If my hypothesis is wrong, then Pascal’s Wager is valid and Pascal was correct in saying that it is better to bet that God exists because the infinite reward (eternal life) far outweighs the small (but non-zero) probability that God is real. The expected reward value of Pascal’s Wager if God has non-zero probability is infinite because infinity multiplied by any positive number (no matter how small) equals infinity. Even if we subtract the cost of believing as Richard Dawkins suggested, the expected reward value is still infinity because infinity minus any finite number (cost of believing) equals infinity.

I believe my hypothesis is correct but I welcome scientists, mathematicians or anyone to challenge it so we can come up with a better hypothesis. If you want to know how I disprove Pascal’s Wager, read on.

Pascal’s Wager says the infinite reward to be gained by believing in God far outweighs the low probability of his existence so it’s better to bet that he is than to bet that he is not. Pascal’s Wager can be simulated by drawing an object from a jar. A black ball represents God. If you draw a black ball, you win an infinite reward. If the jar contains one white ball and one black ball, the probability of drawing the black ball (God exists) is ½. The problem is we don’t know what’s inside the jar. It could be empty (probability of God is zero) or it could contain any object (many possibilities, low probability).

So we have to postulate the possible content of the jar. If this is a real draw in the real world, we can limit the possibilities to any object that exists on earth and can fit inside the jar. However, Pascal’s Wager is not a real draw, it is an imaginary draw. God itself is not a real object that fits the description “any object that exists on earth and can fit inside the jar.” Hence, the imaginary jar can contain any imaginary object. If I assign a positive number to each object I can imagine, the number of possible imaginary objects would be as many as the set of counting numbers, which is endless or infinite. Therefore, the probability of drawing a black ball under this scenario is one divided by infinity equals zero. The magnitude of the reward is irrelevant because the probability of winning is zero thus the expected reward value is always zero.

Pascal’s Wager dissolves into nothingness, which is hardly surprising since this whole game is just a figment of Pascal’s imagination. The conclusion is you cannot gain anything by merely imagining it. The mathematics may be deceptive like the Monty Hall problem but the conclusion is plain common sense.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is God falsifiable? </p>
<p>My hypothesis is there’s no need to disprove an imaginary thing, which we have absolutely no factual knowledge of, because the probability of its existence is in principle nil. Having no factual knowledge means the possibilities are endless or without constraints. The probability that one possibility is true out of an infinite number of possibilities is one divided by infinity equals zero. There’s a need to prove or at least gain some factual knowledge of the imaginary thing to make its probability non-zero.</p>
<p>A good example is dark matter. It is also an imaginary thing but our factual knowledge is not zero. We know something about dark matter like it has mass because it exerts gravitational force to the stars; it is not luminous because we cannot see it with optical telescopes; it does not emit strong or any electromagnetic waves because we cannot detect it with radio telescopes; its mass cannot exceed the total mass of the universe; it is made up of natural matters that obey the laws of physics, etc. In short, there are constraints to dark matter hence the possibilities are finite and the probability is non-zero. In contrast, everything we know about God is not factual but completely speculative, the product of pure imaginations.</p>
<p>If my hypothesis is wrong, then Pascal’s Wager is valid and Pascal was correct in saying that it is better to bet that God exists because the infinite reward (eternal life) far outweighs the small (but non-zero) probability that God is real. The expected reward value of Pascal’s Wager if God has non-zero probability is infinite because infinity multiplied by any positive number (no matter how small) equals infinity. Even if we subtract the cost of believing as Richard Dawkins suggested, the expected reward value is still infinity because infinity minus any finite number (cost of believing) equals infinity.</p>
<p>I believe my hypothesis is correct but I welcome scientists, mathematicians or anyone to challenge it so we can come up with a better hypothesis. If you want to know how I disprove Pascal’s Wager, read on.</p>
<p>Pascal’s Wager says the infinite reward to be gained by believing in God far outweighs the low probability of his existence so it’s better to bet that he is than to bet that he is not. Pascal’s Wager can be simulated by drawing an object from a jar. A black ball represents God. If you draw a black ball, you win an infinite reward. If the jar contains one white ball and one black ball, the probability of drawing the black ball (God exists) is ½. The problem is we don’t know what’s inside the jar. It could be empty (probability of God is zero) or it could contain any object (many possibilities, low probability).</p>
<p>So we have to postulate the possible content of the jar. If this is a real draw in the real world, we can limit the possibilities to any object that exists on earth and can fit inside the jar. However, Pascal’s Wager is not a real draw, it is an imaginary draw. God itself is not a real object that fits the description “any object that exists on earth and can fit inside the jar.” Hence, the imaginary jar can contain any imaginary object. If I assign a positive number to each object I can imagine, the number of possible imaginary objects would be as many as the set of counting numbers, which is endless or infinite. Therefore, the probability of drawing a black ball under this scenario is one divided by infinity equals zero. The magnitude of the reward is irrelevant because the probability of winning is zero thus the expected reward value is always zero.</p>
<p>Pascal’s Wager dissolves into nothingness, which is hardly surprising since this whole game is just a figment of Pascal’s imagination. The conclusion is you cannot gain anything by merely imagining it. The mathematics may be deceptive like the Monty Hall problem but the conclusion is plain common sense.</p>
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		<title>By: Beelzebud</title>
		<link>http://www.skepticblog.org/2009/04/07/why-darwin-matters-to-creationists/#comment-5307</link>
		<dc:creator>Beelzebud</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Apr 2009 17:58:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skepticblog.org/?p=1960#comment-5307</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s nice to see you doing something related to science, as opposed to being a preacher for the free market.   I like your science based work much better than your free-market worship.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s nice to see you doing something related to science, as opposed to being a preacher for the free market.   I like your science based work much better than your free-market worship.</p>
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		<title>By: Devil's Advocate</title>
		<link>http://www.skepticblog.org/2009/04/07/why-darwin-matters-to-creationists/#comment-5300</link>
		<dc:creator>Devil's Advocate</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Apr 2009 13:42:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skepticblog.org/?p=1960#comment-5300</guid>
		<description>Religion = credo consolans, the consoling belief that something is in charge of all this seeming chaos (life) and further, that &#039;something&#039; loves and cares for me. Inculcated since infancy, it is easy to believe and impossible to falsify.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Religion = credo consolans, the consoling belief that something is in charge of all this seeming chaos (life) and further, that &#8216;something&#8217; loves and cares for me. Inculcated since infancy, it is easy to believe and impossible to falsify.</p>
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		<title>By: epicurus</title>
		<link>http://www.skepticblog.org/2009/04/07/why-darwin-matters-to-creationists/#comment-5296</link>
		<dc:creator>epicurus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Apr 2009 02:06:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skepticblog.org/?p=1960#comment-5296</guid>
		<description>I think a lot of believers are not as foolish as non-believers would like to believe. I think a lot of them don’t take their faith seriously (of course there are also a lot of fanatics). They cling to religion because it gives something that science and other secular philosophies cannot give. It may be the cozy feeling of belongingness or some divine purpose in life or the sense of righteousness and immortality, whatever. It may be a fallacy or an illusion but it works. Science is cold but it works. Religion is warm and it also works.

Karl Marx and Friedrich Nietzsche held that religion is opium because it destroys the mind. However, opium is also a pain killing medicine. Moderate dosage can kill pain. Over dosage can kill you. Same is true with religion. Scores of people swear that God healed them, at least emotionally. Scores of people also got killed in the name of God. Throughout history, much more people had been killed in the name of God than in the name of Satan. But this is hardly the fault of God, especially a non-existent one. Humans were doing all the killings. It’s like blaming opium for opium addiction. Like opium, religion is awesome as it is dangerous.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think a lot of believers are not as foolish as non-believers would like to believe. I think a lot of them don’t take their faith seriously (of course there are also a lot of fanatics). They cling to religion because it gives something that science and other secular philosophies cannot give. It may be the cozy feeling of belongingness or some divine purpose in life or the sense of righteousness and immortality, whatever. It may be a fallacy or an illusion but it works. Science is cold but it works. Religion is warm and it also works.</p>
<p>Karl Marx and Friedrich Nietzsche held that religion is opium because it destroys the mind. However, opium is also a pain killing medicine. Moderate dosage can kill pain. Over dosage can kill you. Same is true with religion. Scores of people swear that God healed them, at least emotionally. Scores of people also got killed in the name of God. Throughout history, much more people had been killed in the name of God than in the name of Satan. But this is hardly the fault of God, especially a non-existent one. Humans were doing all the killings. It’s like blaming opium for opium addiction. Like opium, religion is awesome as it is dangerous.</p>
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