Comments on: An unvaccinated child has died from a preventable disease http://www.skepticblog.org/2009/01/28/an-unvaccinated-child-has-died-from-a-preventable-disease/ The official blog of the Skeptologists Sun, 12 Feb 2012 15:44:42 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: MD http://www.skepticblog.org/2009/01/28/an-unvaccinated-child-has-died-from-a-preventable-disease/#comment-31412 MD Thu, 18 Nov 2010 20:13:39 +0000 http://skepticblog.org/?p=990#comment-31412 Bravo Ed, you've hit the nail on the head, you can bet if the unvaccinated had more dead, the researchers would have said! Instead we can infer from the stat absence, that the unvaccinated kids probably have more sense, Of course it'll never be proved, the big pharma and governments have too much to lose, but one day it'll come and when all is done, two decades of fallen children will be recompensed. But by then the west will be bust, and regret a century of world rape most unjust, we must hope the great wave from the east falls on us softly, that they don't just crush the weak like we have so blindly. Bravo Ed, you’ve hit the nail on the head,
you can bet if the unvaccinated had more dead,
the researchers would have said!
Instead we can infer from the stat absence,
that the unvaccinated kids probably have more sense,
Of course it’ll never be proved,
the big pharma and governments have too much to lose,
but one day it’ll come and when all is done,
two decades of fallen children will be recompensed.
But by then the west will be bust,
and regret a century of world rape most unjust,
we must hope the great wave from the east falls on us softly,
that they don’t just crush the weak like we have so blindly.

]]> By: Ed in Colorado http://www.skepticblog.org/2009/01/28/an-unvaccinated-child-has-died-from-a-preventable-disease/#comment-3683 Ed in Colorado Sun, 15 Feb 2009 04:08:22 +0000 http://skepticblog.org/?p=990#comment-3683 For years the public has been told that the medical community findings are that there is no connection between autism and vaccines. The findings by the medical community were made statistically. There is one thing that I do not understand. There has never once been a statistical measurement done on requisite control group, that is, the unvaccinated children. About 2% of the population refuses to vaccinate their children. There are plenty of unvaccinated subjects from which the statistics can be gathered. But it has never been done. Without the statistics on the control group, I do not understand how the medical community can make the statistical conclusion that they make - there is no connection between autism and vaccines. There has only been one statistical measurement of the unvaccinated population. That occurred before the great vaccine push. At that time the autism rate was 1/2500 not 1/160 as it is now. That would say one of two things: The autism rate increased with the vaccine push; the autism rate increased with the real cause of the autism rate increase. Which of the two conclusions should be made can only be had with the statistical measurement of the control group, the unvaccinated children. For years the public has been told that the medical community findings are that there is no connection between autism and vaccines. The findings by the medical community were made statistically. There is one thing that I do not understand. There has never once been a statistical measurement done on requisite control group, that is, the unvaccinated children. About 2% of the population refuses to vaccinate their children. There are plenty of unvaccinated subjects from which the statistics can be gathered. But it has never been done. Without the statistics on the control group, I do not understand how the medical community can make the statistical conclusion that they make – there is no connection between autism and vaccines.

There has only been one statistical measurement of the unvaccinated population. That occurred before the great vaccine push. At that time the autism rate was 1/2500 not 1/160 as it is now. That would say one of two things: The autism rate increased with the vaccine push; the autism rate increased with the real cause of the autism rate increase. Which of the two conclusions should be made can only be had with the statistical measurement of the control group, the unvaccinated children.

]]> By: Max http://www.skepticblog.org/2009/01/28/an-unvaccinated-child-has-died-from-a-preventable-disease/#comment-3425 Max Sat, 07 Feb 2009 19:41:09 +0000 http://skepticblog.org/?p=990#comment-3425 Smallpox was eradicated in December 1979. Polio was eradicated in America, Europe, China, and dozens of countries. It remains a problem in Nigeria, where people think the immunizations are a Western plot to make Muslims sterile. Phil Plait quoted the CDC, "Since implementation of the Hib conjugate vaccine immunization program in the United States in the early 1990s, the incidence of Hib disease has declined from a peak of 41 cases per 100,000 children aged <5 years in 1987 to approximately 0.11 cases per 100,000 in 2007." The HPV vaccine may reduce the incidence of cervical cancer. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eradication_of_infectious_diseases Smallpox was eradicated in December 1979. Polio was eradicated in America, Europe, China, and dozens of countries. It remains a problem in Nigeria, where people think the immunizations are a Western plot to make Muslims sterile.

Phil Plait quoted the CDC, “Since implementation of the Hib conjugate vaccine immunization program in the United States in the early 1990s, the incidence of Hib disease has declined from a peak of 41 cases per 100,000 children aged <5 years in 1987 to approximately 0.11 cases per 100,000 in 2007.”

The HPV vaccine may reduce the incidence of cervical cancer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eradication_of_infectious_diseases

]]> By: chickenfish http://www.skepticblog.org/2009/01/28/an-unvaccinated-child-has-died-from-a-preventable-disease/#comment-3421 chickenfish Sat, 07 Feb 2009 13:55:12 +0000 http://skepticblog.org/?p=990#comment-3421 How do we know this Max? Other than penicillin, which isnt a vaccine, what else is there? How do we know this Max? Other than penicillin, which isnt a vaccine, what else is there?

]]> By: Max http://www.skepticblog.org/2009/01/28/an-unvaccinated-child-has-died-from-a-preventable-disease/#comment-3415 Max Fri, 06 Feb 2009 21:25:54 +0000 http://skepticblog.org/?p=990#comment-3415 We also know that vaccines and drugs in general have nearly eradicated some diseases and increased life expectancy. As you said, "It's the simple things in plain sight that are most often overlooked". We also know that vaccines and drugs in general have nearly eradicated some diseases and increased life expectancy. As you said, “It’s the simple things in plain sight that are most often overlooked”.

]]> By: chickenfish http://www.skepticblog.org/2009/01/28/an-unvaccinated-child-has-died-from-a-preventable-disease/#comment-3414 chickenfish Fri, 06 Feb 2009 21:04:45 +0000 http://skepticblog.org/?p=990#comment-3414 Heya Devil's Advocate. My questions are not intended to be rhetorical, I welcome answers no matter how simple the question may seem. Its the simple things in plain sight that are most often overlooked, and this is where I usually find my own assumptions, so I always ask the simple questions as the first step in my critical thinking formula. Im particularly pleased that you take the time to have this discussion, thank you. Ill try to tackle your questions here. "What entire community or majority of what community assumes this? if a pharma company produced it, it must be acceptable.” I suggest any community within the US for an example. My support of this assertion is the tremendous growth and popularity of the pharma and associated industries. Certainly enough people within the community maintain the assumption to financially support what has become an institution. In support of my comments that suggest that vaccines may not be what they are claimed I refer again to the tremendous growth and popularity of the pharma and associated industries. Money, growth and power are the only motivators within a private corporation and make them highly suspect. We also know that pharma companies have what they call lobbyists who hand large sums of money over to politicians to protect their private interests. As long as this money changes hands the government monitors become suspect. Are you sure you aren’t assuming others know as little about vaccinations as you apparently do? I don't pretend to know about vaccines or their effectiveness but I do know a few things about the operations which constitute their development. I also know that what there is available to educate ourselves on vaccines has been provided by companies directly profiting from their sales. Ill finish by stating that I do not necessarily advocate or not advocate vaccinations, I am merely skeptical of them. Heya Devil’s Advocate. My questions are not intended to be rhetorical, I welcome answers no matter how simple the question may seem. Its the simple things in plain sight that are most often overlooked, and this is where I usually find my own assumptions, so I always ask the simple questions as the first step in my critical thinking formula.

Im particularly pleased that you take the time to have this discussion, thank you. Ill try to tackle your questions here.

“What entire community or majority of what community assumes this? if a pharma company produced it, it must be acceptable.”

I suggest any community within the US for an example. My support of this assertion is the tremendous growth and popularity of the pharma and associated industries. Certainly enough people within the community maintain the assumption to financially support what has become an institution.

In support of my comments that suggest that vaccines may not be what they are claimed I refer again to the tremendous growth and popularity of the pharma and associated industries. Money, growth and power are the only motivators within a private corporation and make them highly suspect. We also know that pharma companies have what they call lobbyists who hand large sums of money over to politicians to protect their private interests. As long as this money changes hands the government monitors become suspect.

Are you sure you aren’t assuming others know as little about vaccinations as you apparently do?

I don’t pretend to know about vaccines or their effectiveness but I do know a few things about the operations which constitute their development. I also know that what there is available to educate ourselves on vaccines has been provided by companies directly profiting from their sales.

Ill finish by stating that I do not necessarily advocate or not advocate vaccinations, I am merely skeptical of them.

]]> By: Devil's Advocate http://www.skepticblog.org/2009/01/28/an-unvaccinated-child-has-died-from-a-preventable-disease/#comment-3387 Devil's Advocate Thu, 05 Feb 2009 23:33:10 +0000 http://skepticblog.org/?p=990#comment-3387 Well, chickenfish, all I can say is.... Are your questions rhetorical? If not, please understand that although you don’t know the answers to your questions, it doesn’t mean they aren’t known and haven’t been considered as part of the standard medical model risk/benefit calculations. "But there seems to be a communal assumption that if a pharma company produced it, it must be acceptable." What entire community or majority of what community assumes this? I know I don't. Are you sure you aren't assuming others know as little about vaccinations as you apparently do? Well, chickenfish, all I can say is…. Are your questions rhetorical? If not, please understand that although you don’t know the answers to your questions, it doesn’t mean they aren’t known and haven’t been considered as part of the standard medical model risk/benefit calculations.

“But there seems to be a communal assumption that if a pharma company produced it, it must be acceptable.”

What entire community or majority of what community assumes this? I know I don’t.

Are you sure you aren’t assuming others know as little about vaccinations as you apparently do?

]]> By: Max http://www.skepticblog.org/2009/01/28/an-unvaccinated-child-has-died-from-a-preventable-disease/#comment-3382 Max Thu, 05 Feb 2009 22:02:19 +0000 http://skepticblog.org/?p=990#comment-3382 If anything, the assumption is that if the government approved and recommended it, the AMA and your doctor recommended it, and your insurance covers 100% of the cost, it must be acceptable. If anything, the assumption is that if the government approved and recommended it, the AMA and your doctor recommended it, and your insurance covers 100% of the cost, it must be acceptable.

]]> By: chickenfish http://www.skepticblog.org/2009/01/28/an-unvaccinated-child-has-died-from-a-preventable-disease/#comment-3381 chickenfish Thu, 05 Feb 2009 21:19:59 +0000 http://skepticblog.org/?p=990#comment-3381 (32) I would ask similar questions before drinking water in Bolivia although I probably already know the answers. Its not for one to decide between fact and fiction, it is only to ask questions. The scientific process if you will. With regard to the medical model risk/benefit calculations, who calculates them? Quo bono, who gains from this? Now we can step back and start again considering the benefit of vaccines. As with coke, we know its bad for us, sure it will get rid of a headache, stave off heat stroke and clean the toilet but do we really want to resign to using it if we dont have too? The same with inoculants, we shop the company, consider its reputation and read the ingredients then make an informed decision. But there seems to be a communal assumption that if a pharma company produced it, it must be acceptable. (32) I would ask similar questions before drinking water in Bolivia although I probably already know the answers. Its not for one to decide between fact and fiction, it is only to ask questions. The scientific process if you will.

With regard to the medical model risk/benefit calculations, who calculates them? Quo bono, who gains from this? Now we can step back and start again considering the benefit of vaccines.

As with coke, we know its bad for us, sure it will get rid of a headache, stave off heat stroke and clean the toilet but do we really want to resign to using it if we dont have too? The same with inoculants, we shop the company, consider its reputation and read the ingredients then make an informed decision. But there seems to be a communal assumption that if a pharma company produced it, it must be acceptable.

]]> By: Devil's Advocate http://www.skepticblog.org/2009/01/28/an-unvaccinated-child-has-died-from-a-preventable-disease/#comment-3380 Devil's Advocate Thu, 05 Feb 2009 19:31:50 +0000 http://skepticblog.org/?p=990#comment-3380 Chickenfish, are your questions rhetorical? If not, please understand that although you don't know the answers to your questions, it doesn't mean they aren't known and haven't been considered as part of the standard medical model risk/benefit calculations. Chickenfish, are your questions rhetorical? If not, please understand that although you don’t know the answers to your questions, it doesn’t mean they aren’t known and haven’t been considered as part of the standard medical model risk/benefit calculations.

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