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	<title>Comments on: Headaches? Stick Yourself With Needles&#8230; Or, Not</title>
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		<title>By: pamela</title>
		<link>http://www.skepticblog.org/2009/01/23/headaches-stick-yourself-with-needles-or-not/#comment-7691</link>
		<dc:creator>pamela</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 May 2009 20:51:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skepticblog.org/?p=969#comment-7691</guid>
		<description>MDs who practice acupuncture more often than not study &quot;medical acupuncture&quot; which is an anatomically based system and it is usually taught as a series of weekend courses. Trained acupuncturists complete four years of training on top of their undergrad studies. They utilize a completely different system, have a much broader knowledge of how to use acupuncture and have many more &quot;tools under their belt&quot;. You did not specify what kind of training he had in actual acupuncture, that is Traditional Chinese Medicine. If he did just take the weekend training, I recommend that you seek a qualified acupuncturist and utilize the herbs as an adjunct - you might be happier with the results.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>MDs who practice acupuncture more often than not study &#8220;medical acupuncture&#8221; which is an anatomically based system and it is usually taught as a series of weekend courses. Trained acupuncturists complete four years of training on top of their undergrad studies. They utilize a completely different system, have a much broader knowledge of how to use acupuncture and have many more &#8220;tools under their belt&#8221;. You did not specify what kind of training he had in actual acupuncture, that is Traditional Chinese Medicine. If he did just take the weekend training, I recommend that you seek a qualified acupuncturist and utilize the herbs as an adjunct &#8211; you might be happier with the results.</p>
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		<title>By: Mastriani</title>
		<link>http://www.skepticblog.org/2009/01/23/headaches-stick-yourself-with-needles-or-not/#comment-3153</link>
		<dc:creator>Mastriani</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Jan 2009 14:15:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skepticblog.org/?p=969#comment-3153</guid>
		<description>Last night one of the local news stations ran a &quot;special report&quot; on acupuncture.

&quot;The experts in the field claim ...&quot;; 

Certainly, &quot;experts&quot; ...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Last night one of the local news stations ran a &#8220;special report&#8221; on acupuncture.</p>
<p>&#8220;The experts in the field claim &#8230;&#8221;; </p>
<p>Certainly, &#8220;experts&#8221; &#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Darin</title>
		<link>http://www.skepticblog.org/2009/01/23/headaches-stick-yourself-with-needles-or-not/#comment-3002</link>
		<dc:creator>Darin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Jan 2009 03:08:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skepticblog.org/?p=969#comment-3002</guid>
		<description>It seems highly unlikely that a pharmaceutical company is going to fund clinical trials if they do not have compelling reasons to believe that the medication being studied has significant potential for approval and use.  I&#039;ve been a research subject in three clinical trials (Passive HyperImmune Therapy(adoptive immunotherapy), Gem91(genetic medicine), and prosaptide(HIV peripheral neuropathy) where the results were not sufficiently positive to continue with development and the approval process.  After a fully conducted clinical trial in each instance, no further development and research occurred.

There are significant numbers of investigative medications, therapies, and interventions that are shelved after investigation reveals them to be ineffective or possessing an unacceptable side-effect profile, it&#039;s called research and development.  One has to wonder what a pharmaceutical company would do with a &#039;procedure&#039; such as acupuncture if it were investigated as a medicine or therapy which would require FDA approval.  It&#039;s quite likely that it would be shelved as ineffective or at least as effective as a placebo.  R&amp;D would relegate acupuncture to the shelf where it belongs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It seems highly unlikely that a pharmaceutical company is going to fund clinical trials if they do not have compelling reasons to believe that the medication being studied has significant potential for approval and use.  I&#8217;ve been a research subject in three clinical trials (Passive HyperImmune Therapy(adoptive immunotherapy), Gem91(genetic medicine), and prosaptide(HIV peripheral neuropathy) where the results were not sufficiently positive to continue with development and the approval process.  After a fully conducted clinical trial in each instance, no further development and research occurred.</p>
<p>There are significant numbers of investigative medications, therapies, and interventions that are shelved after investigation reveals them to be ineffective or possessing an unacceptable side-effect profile, it&#8217;s called research and development.  One has to wonder what a pharmaceutical company would do with a &#8216;procedure&#8217; such as acupuncture if it were investigated as a medicine or therapy which would require FDA approval.  It&#8217;s quite likely that it would be shelved as ineffective or at least as effective as a placebo.  R&amp;D would relegate acupuncture to the shelf where it belongs.</p>
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		<title>By: Max</title>
		<link>http://www.skepticblog.org/2009/01/23/headaches-stick-yourself-with-needles-or-not/#comment-2958</link>
		<dc:creator>Max</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Jan 2009 17:28:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skepticblog.org/?p=969#comment-2958</guid>
		<description>In theory, bias is not a matter of ignorance, but a matter of being invested in promoting or criticizing something. But in practice, nobody becomes an expert in a subject without getting invested in it.
Bias in medical research has been studied. For example, drug studies funded by drug companies tend to conclude in favor of the drug.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In theory, bias is not a matter of ignorance, but a matter of being invested in promoting or criticizing something. But in practice, nobody becomes an expert in a subject without getting invested in it.<br />
Bias in medical research has been studied. For example, drug studies funded by drug companies tend to conclude in favor of the drug.</p>
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		<title>By: Devil's Advocate</title>
		<link>http://www.skepticblog.org/2009/01/23/headaches-stick-yourself-with-needles-or-not/#comment-2955</link>
		<dc:creator>Devil's Advocate</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Jan 2009 17:08:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skepticblog.org/?p=969#comment-2955</guid>
		<description>&quot;There are numerous studies that indicate the effectiveness of acupunture for various situations. But the question was if the acupunturists should be doing the research on acupunture.&quot;

Sure, if they follow proper protocols so that their results are credible. 

&quot;This is a good question that could be asked about drugs (the drug companies fund the tests.) Or any other medical procedure. (doctors review the tests…). The problem as I see it is that if one must be ignorant to be unbiased, then only the ignorant will be considered to have valuable opinions. The more ignorant the more useful the opinion.
Clearly this doesn’t work.&quot;

Your error is in assuming that only ignorance affords objectivity. Properly done research and testing controls for bias. 

&quot;A dose of doubt regarding claims might work, but it involves questioning those who are considered experts.&quot;

Not so much as it involves careful review of their research and testing protocols and whether their findings have been replicated by others also employing proper protocols for research and testing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;There are numerous studies that indicate the effectiveness of acupunture for various situations. But the question was if the acupunturists should be doing the research on acupunture.&#8221;</p>
<p>Sure, if they follow proper protocols so that their results are credible. </p>
<p>&#8220;This is a good question that could be asked about drugs (the drug companies fund the tests.) Or any other medical procedure. (doctors review the tests…). The problem as I see it is that if one must be ignorant to be unbiased, then only the ignorant will be considered to have valuable opinions. The more ignorant the more useful the opinion.<br />
Clearly this doesn’t work.&#8221;</p>
<p>Your error is in assuming that only ignorance affords objectivity. Properly done research and testing controls for bias. </p>
<p>&#8220;A dose of doubt regarding claims might work, but it involves questioning those who are considered experts.&#8221;</p>
<p>Not so much as it involves careful review of their research and testing protocols and whether their findings have been replicated by others also employing proper protocols for research and testing.</p>
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		<title>By: sonic</title>
		<link>http://www.skepticblog.org/2009/01/23/headaches-stick-yourself-with-needles-or-not/#comment-2939</link>
		<dc:creator>sonic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Jan 2009 03:06:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skepticblog.org/?p=969#comment-2939</guid>
		<description>There are numerous studies that indicate the effectiveness of acupunture for various situations.
But the question was if the acupunturists should be doing the research on acupunture.
This is a good question that could be asked about drugs (the drug companies fund the tests.)  Or any other medical procedure. (doctors review the tests...)
The problem as I see it is that if one must be ignorant to be unbiased, then only the ignorant will be considered to have valuable opinions.  The more ignorant the more useful the opinion.
Clearly this doesn&#039;t work.
A dose of doubt regarding claims might work, but it involves questioning those who are considered experts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There are numerous studies that indicate the effectiveness of acupunture for various situations.<br />
But the question was if the acupunturists should be doing the research on acupunture.<br />
This is a good question that could be asked about drugs (the drug companies fund the tests.)  Or any other medical procedure. (doctors review the tests&#8230;)<br />
The problem as I see it is that if one must be ignorant to be unbiased, then only the ignorant will be considered to have valuable opinions.  The more ignorant the more useful the opinion.<br />
Clearly this doesn&#8217;t work.<br />
A dose of doubt regarding claims might work, but it involves questioning those who are considered experts.</p>
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		<title>By: Darin</title>
		<link>http://www.skepticblog.org/2009/01/23/headaches-stick-yourself-with-needles-or-not/#comment-2929</link>
		<dc:creator>Darin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Jan 2009 16:31:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skepticblog.org/?p=969#comment-2929</guid>
		<description>Terry Simpson, thanks for brining up the phenomenon of &#039;gating.&#039;  I&#039;ve been diagnosed with HIV-associated painful peripheral neuropathy (PPN) in my feet and lower legs since the early &#039;90&#039;s.  During this time, I&#039;ve been practicing the art of gating inexpensively, safely, and effectively at home through a combination of ice packs, warm foot spas, a cheap mild O.T.C. topical ointment (active ingredients: essential oils of camphor, mint, eucalyptus, cinnamon, and clove), self-massage, stretching, and gentle exercise (walking, gardening, docenting at the local botanical garden, and staying generally productively active).  

Most of all, I&#039;ve changed my mental and emotional perspective on chronic background and breakthrough pain.  I&#039;ve also educated myself quite extensively through quality medical sources about my condition.  I&#039;ve been under the care of a neurologist at the nearby medical school for a decade and a half.  He and I have an active and enjoyable doctor+patient relationship and as advances in the scientific understanding of my medical condition have changed, we&#039;ve worked together to keep the neuropathy portion of my medical care current and complete.  I&#039;ve also participated in some phase III, randomized, double-blind, placebo controlled clinical trials of neuropathy medications, so as a patient participant I&#039;ve seen how knowledge is properly and correctly gained.  Other than during the medication study times, I&#039;ve taken anti-PPN symptom medications from  various medication classes.  I have no formal science background other than a college biology class 25 years ago, yet I do have the ability to read and understand scientific, rational, reasonable, and valid materials and know how to avoid being scammed.

A few years ago an acquaintance repaid me for a large favor my giving me a 12-session gift certificate ($900.00 value!) at an acupuncturist.  Oddly, this acquaintance was a big supporter and user of acupuncture although he also concurrently claimed severe PPN after years of treatment.  After calling the acupuncturist and discovering that the certificate was non-refundable, I decided I might as well use up the sessions.    

The &#039;holistic health&#039; center was quite lovely and after checking in, I was served a cup of green tea in a charming pottery cup and relaxed to calming newage music in the waiting hall.  The accupuncturist took me into a small room with soothing sage green painted walls, a grass cloth accent screen, natural wood flooring and oriental rugs, aromatherapy candles blazing, indirect lighting, lovely Asian-themed artwork, cut flowers in a earthenware peasant vase, silk curtains nicely contrasting the pastel walls, and in the center of the room a treatment table rose up I can best describe as altar-zen-chic.  I&#039;d filled out a basic information sheet about my medical history and the smooth voiced practitioner was most interested in instilling a belief that accupunture worked better than &#039;that toxic drug&#039; that my neurologist was prescribing.  I duly used all the gift certificate treatments over a 12 week period and experienced absolutely no effect on my breakthrough peripheral neuropathy symptoms and nothing with the background pain.  The accupunturist began each post-poking session with the same question, &#039;How much better are you feeling?&#039;  To which I answered, &#039;Not any.&#039;  Her:  &#039;Nothing?&#039;  Me:  &#039;Some transient relief immediately after the treatment, but nothing after an hour or so.&#039;  Her:  &#039;The longer you come for treatments, the longer each treatment will work.&#039;  Me (to self):  &#039;Oh my.&#039;  I was highly encouraged to believe in the treatment, which in my patient&#039;s mind, confirmed the effectiveness of accupuncture as a placebo with expensive gating potential, nothing more.  How I would laugh and walk out if my neurologist would advise me that I had to believe, really believe in the pills, capsules, and/or tablets he prescribed to ensure their effectiveness.

I know that my story is pure anecdote and should be considered only as the basis for a hypothesis, but it is my anecdote to share.  Both the acupuncturist and the well-intentioned although scarily evangelical acquaintance blamed me for my failure to experience salvation through the healing powers of becoming a human pincushion.  The acupuncturist went as far as to blame the failure on my refusal to cease taking my prescribed PPN anti-seizure class medication during the three months of her sticking me.  I asked her how a prescription medication might prevent the effectiveness of her technique since they, um, like, sorta are based on, like, um, you know, like totally different modalities and the answer was a nonsensical mix of pseudoscience, affirmation slogans, and song lyrics (I&#039;m not kidding, she actually quoted both a Joni Mitchell and a k.d. lang song to explain her &#039;medical&#039; technique).  If there was anything I learned, it was to trust in my own amateur critical reasoning and thinking skills and be endlessly and mildly amused at the tomfoolery that passes as alternative and complementary quackery.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Terry Simpson, thanks for brining up the phenomenon of &#8216;gating.&#8217;  I&#8217;ve been diagnosed with HIV-associated painful peripheral neuropathy (PPN) in my feet and lower legs since the early &#8217;90&#8242;s.  During this time, I&#8217;ve been practicing the art of gating inexpensively, safely, and effectively at home through a combination of ice packs, warm foot spas, a cheap mild O.T.C. topical ointment (active ingredients: essential oils of camphor, mint, eucalyptus, cinnamon, and clove), self-massage, stretching, and gentle exercise (walking, gardening, docenting at the local botanical garden, and staying generally productively active).  </p>
<p>Most of all, I&#8217;ve changed my mental and emotional perspective on chronic background and breakthrough pain.  I&#8217;ve also educated myself quite extensively through quality medical sources about my condition.  I&#8217;ve been under the care of a neurologist at the nearby medical school for a decade and a half.  He and I have an active and enjoyable doctor+patient relationship and as advances in the scientific understanding of my medical condition have changed, we&#8217;ve worked together to keep the neuropathy portion of my medical care current and complete.  I&#8217;ve also participated in some phase III, randomized, double-blind, placebo controlled clinical trials of neuropathy medications, so as a patient participant I&#8217;ve seen how knowledge is properly and correctly gained.  Other than during the medication study times, I&#8217;ve taken anti-PPN symptom medications from  various medication classes.  I have no formal science background other than a college biology class 25 years ago, yet I do have the ability to read and understand scientific, rational, reasonable, and valid materials and know how to avoid being scammed.</p>
<p>A few years ago an acquaintance repaid me for a large favor my giving me a 12-session gift certificate ($900.00 value!) at an acupuncturist.  Oddly, this acquaintance was a big supporter and user of acupuncture although he also concurrently claimed severe PPN after years of treatment.  After calling the acupuncturist and discovering that the certificate was non-refundable, I decided I might as well use up the sessions.    </p>
<p>The &#8216;holistic health&#8217; center was quite lovely and after checking in, I was served a cup of green tea in a charming pottery cup and relaxed to calming newage music in the waiting hall.  The accupuncturist took me into a small room with soothing sage green painted walls, a grass cloth accent screen, natural wood flooring and oriental rugs, aromatherapy candles blazing, indirect lighting, lovely Asian-themed artwork, cut flowers in a earthenware peasant vase, silk curtains nicely contrasting the pastel walls, and in the center of the room a treatment table rose up I can best describe as altar-zen-chic.  I&#8217;d filled out a basic information sheet about my medical history and the smooth voiced practitioner was most interested in instilling a belief that accupunture worked better than &#8216;that toxic drug&#8217; that my neurologist was prescribing.  I duly used all the gift certificate treatments over a 12 week period and experienced absolutely no effect on my breakthrough peripheral neuropathy symptoms and nothing with the background pain.  The accupunturist began each post-poking session with the same question, &#8216;How much better are you feeling?&#8217;  To which I answered, &#8216;Not any.&#8217;  Her:  &#8216;Nothing?&#8217;  Me:  &#8216;Some transient relief immediately after the treatment, but nothing after an hour or so.&#8217;  Her:  &#8216;The longer you come for treatments, the longer each treatment will work.&#8217;  Me (to self):  &#8216;Oh my.&#8217;  I was highly encouraged to believe in the treatment, which in my patient&#8217;s mind, confirmed the effectiveness of accupuncture as a placebo with expensive gating potential, nothing more.  How I would laugh and walk out if my neurologist would advise me that I had to believe, really believe in the pills, capsules, and/or tablets he prescribed to ensure their effectiveness.</p>
<p>I know that my story is pure anecdote and should be considered only as the basis for a hypothesis, but it is my anecdote to share.  Both the acupuncturist and the well-intentioned although scarily evangelical acquaintance blamed me for my failure to experience salvation through the healing powers of becoming a human pincushion.  The acupuncturist went as far as to blame the failure on my refusal to cease taking my prescribed PPN anti-seizure class medication during the three months of her sticking me.  I asked her how a prescription medication might prevent the effectiveness of her technique since they, um, like, sorta are based on, like, um, you know, like totally different modalities and the answer was a nonsensical mix of pseudoscience, affirmation slogans, and song lyrics (I&#8217;m not kidding, she actually quoted both a Joni Mitchell and a k.d. lang song to explain her &#8216;medical&#8217; technique).  If there was anything I learned, it was to trust in my own amateur critical reasoning and thinking skills and be endlessly and mildly amused at the tomfoolery that passes as alternative and complementary quackery.</p>
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		<title>By: Max</title>
		<link>http://www.skepticblog.org/2009/01/23/headaches-stick-yourself-with-needles-or-not/#comment-2924</link>
		<dc:creator>Max</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Jan 2009 08:23:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skepticblog.org/?p=969#comment-2924</guid>
		<description>If there&#039;s one test acupuncture has passed, it&#039;s the test of time, having been around for several thousand years.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If there&#8217;s one test acupuncture has passed, it&#8217;s the test of time, having been around for several thousand years.</p>
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		<title>By: Terry Simpson MD FACS</title>
		<link>http://www.skepticblog.org/2009/01/23/headaches-stick-yourself-with-needles-or-not/#comment-2921</link>
		<dc:creator>Terry Simpson MD FACS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Jan 2009 02:36:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skepticblog.org/?p=969#comment-2921</guid>
		<description>There is a phenomenon of gating -- where the nerve fibers can only transmit so much.  By applying ice, or heat, or other stimuli it overloads the neural highway - gating the pain.  That might be the best this silly process is about. There is no &quot;energy&quot; as the ancients thought.  Acupuncture is another pseudo-science, something that didn&#039;t pass the test of time, but comes up again, and again -- never to die as long as those make money off it will be around.  Acupuncture is not even scientific as &quot;bleeding&quot; which can be helpful in patients who have iron overload.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is a phenomenon of gating &#8212; where the nerve fibers can only transmit so much.  By applying ice, or heat, or other stimuli it overloads the neural highway &#8211; gating the pain.  That might be the best this silly process is about. There is no &#8220;energy&#8221; as the ancients thought.  Acupuncture is another pseudo-science, something that didn&#8217;t pass the test of time, but comes up again, and again &#8212; never to die as long as those make money off it will be around.  Acupuncture is not even scientific as &#8220;bleeding&#8221; which can be helpful in patients who have iron overload.</p>
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		<title>By: Mastriani</title>
		<link>http://www.skepticblog.org/2009/01/23/headaches-stick-yourself-with-needles-or-not/#comment-2896</link>
		<dc:creator>Mastriani</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Jan 2009 19:14:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skepticblog.org/?p=969#comment-2896</guid>
		<description>This is exactly the same as the CP article in Skeptic magazine, Vol. 14, No. 2, 2008, pgs. 42-47; with a complete set of verifiable case and meta-analyzes reference, which is page 47 completely.

Acupuncture is purely placebo, and all the &quot;usable&quot; studies show that its efficacy is directly in-line with mathematical chance, and nothing more.

Is there conflict of interest?  Definitely.  Look at any study that comes out of Asia; claims of 90% effective intervention.  Until you find out there are no controls in place, and the placebo effect is tied to cultural affectation.

Acupuncture is right there with remote viewing and criminal profiling; utterly bogus when actual scientific methodology is applied.  But that won&#039;t stop it from being a &quot;profession&quot; that rakes in the money.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is exactly the same as the CP article in Skeptic magazine, Vol. 14, No. 2, 2008, pgs. 42-47; with a complete set of verifiable case and meta-analyzes reference, which is page 47 completely.</p>
<p>Acupuncture is purely placebo, and all the &#8220;usable&#8221; studies show that its efficacy is directly in-line with mathematical chance, and nothing more.</p>
<p>Is there conflict of interest?  Definitely.  Look at any study that comes out of Asia; claims of 90% effective intervention.  Until you find out there are no controls in place, and the placebo effect is tied to cultural affectation.</p>
<p>Acupuncture is right there with remote viewing and criminal profiling; utterly bogus when actual scientific methodology is applied.  But that won&#8217;t stop it from being a &#8220;profession&#8221; that rakes in the money.</p>
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