Comments on: The Tao of Chinese Medicine – I http://www.skepticblog.org/2008/11/02/tcm-1/ The official blog of the Skeptologists Sat, 11 Feb 2012 03:24:56 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: alterEgo http://www.skepticblog.org/2008/11/02/tcm-1/#comment-72856 alterEgo Fri, 20 Jan 2012 12:41:50 +0000 http://skepticblog.org/?p=220#comment-72856 Great article! Very interesting read. I absolutely agree especially with this To understand TCM, you do not need to understand chemistry, biology, anatomy or physiology because the foundation of TCM has nothing to do with them. You need instead to understand Taoism and Confucianism, as these philosophies are the founding principles of TCM <a href="http://www.tcm.org/" rel="nofollow">www.tcm.org</a>. Thank you author! Great article! Very interesting read. I absolutely agree especially with this To understand TCM, you do not need to understand chemistry, biology, anatomy or physiology because the foundation of TCM has nothing to do with them. You need instead to understand Taoism and Confucianism, as these philosophies are the founding principles of TCM http://www.tcm.org.

Thank you author!

]]> By: Dave http://www.skepticblog.org/2008/11/02/tcm-1/#comment-71552 Dave Sun, 25 Dec 2011 22:11:04 +0000 http://skepticblog.org/?p=220#comment-71552 To those of you who claim that TCM helps to prevent and Western medicine only treats symptoms. I think ideas that the Chinese labeled fancily as "medicine" could be regarded as common sense in the 21st century. TCM says things like: sleep enough, eat moderately, avoid stress, exercise. We don't need to explain these things with Chi to understand why they are good for us. So I think that you just miss the fact that we don't call these common sense ideas "medicine" anymore. Don't know about where you live, but here in Estonia, we have commercials in TVs and public transport telling you to eat your vegetables. In schools we are told how important it is to do sports. So just because your doctors or the pharmaceutical companies (capitalism, I know it's bad in a way, but still), i.e the ones specialized in medicine, won't tell you how to avoid getting ill in the first place, it doesn't mean that Western medicine is bad. Of course it has its own problems, but since it's heavily evidence-based, we have a way of improving it. TCM is, however, tradition. Happy holidays! To those of you who claim that TCM helps to prevent and Western medicine only treats symptoms.

I think ideas that the Chinese labeled fancily as “medicine” could be regarded as common sense in the 21st century. TCM says things like: sleep enough, eat moderately, avoid stress, exercise. We don’t need to explain these things with Chi to understand why they are good for us.

So I think that you just miss the fact that we don’t call these common sense ideas “medicine” anymore. Don’t know about where you live, but here in Estonia, we have commercials in TVs and public transport telling you to eat your vegetables. In schools we are told how important it is to do sports.

So just because your doctors or the pharmaceutical companies (capitalism, I know it’s bad in a way, but still), i.e the ones specialized in medicine, won’t tell you how to avoid getting ill in the first place, it doesn’t mean that Western medicine is bad. Of course it has its own problems, but since it’s heavily evidence-based, we have a way of improving it. TCM is, however, tradition.

Happy holidays!

]]> By: John Roumeliotis http://www.skepticblog.org/2008/11/02/tcm-1/#comment-62410 John Roumeliotis Mon, 12 Sep 2011 18:51:03 +0000 http://skepticblog.org/?p=220#comment-62410 For Eastern or Western medicine "There is no substitute for empirical studies". So, irregardless what side of the ocean you live on, do your homework because,a quack is a quack is a quack. For Eastern or Western medicine “There is no substitute for empirical studies”.

So, irregardless what side of the ocean you live on, do your homework because,a quack is a quack is a quack.

]]> By: Raoul http://www.skepticblog.org/2008/11/02/tcm-1/#comment-27818 Raoul Sun, 26 Sep 2010 00:41:42 +0000 http://skepticblog.org/?p=220#comment-27818 Its true epidemic disease killed many people in China and Europe. But the efficacy of diagnosis and treatment in China, not just for epidemic disease but disease in general, enabled the growth of larger populations and ultimately kept more people alive. My point being that more than superstition, placebo or chance was at work here. TCM is a ancient Eastern healing art that has much to offer the modern Western world. It can be used to actively treat disease but in divergence from the West it has an equally important focus on health preservation,in order to 'treat disease before it arises'. In the west we have a disease focused model and a very effective one at that. Western Medicine is the treatment of choice for trauma and advanced iillness The Traditional Chinese Medical system focuses on health maintenance, preservation as well as treatment. This is where the ideas of Yin and Yang , holistic concept , the 5 elements come in. They help describe the characteristics of any phenomena and provide the uniting matrix that allows one to see how everything is connected. They are a framework that enables a practitioner to discern clinically significant imbalances that have lead to disease and then treat it in the individual by essentially restoring harmony. In a world such as ours where imbalance and divergence from the natural order are considered "normal" TCM can provide a framework for living a healthier happier and longer life. Its true epidemic disease killed many people in China and Europe. But the efficacy of diagnosis and treatment in China, not just for epidemic disease but disease in general, enabled the growth of larger populations and ultimately kept more people alive. My point being that more than superstition, placebo or chance was at work here. TCM is a ancient Eastern healing art that has much to offer the modern Western world.
It can be used to actively treat disease but in divergence from the West it has an equally important focus on health preservation,in order to ‘treat disease before it arises’.
In the west we have a disease focused model and a very effective one at that. Western Medicine is the treatment of choice for trauma and advanced iillness
The Traditional Chinese Medical system focuses on health maintenance, preservation as well as treatment. This is where the ideas of Yin and Yang , holistic concept , the 5 elements come in.
They help describe the characteristics of any phenomena and provide the uniting matrix that allows one to see how everything is connected. They are a framework that enables a practitioner to discern clinically significant imbalances that have lead to disease and then treat it in the individual by essentially restoring harmony.
In a world such as ours where imbalance and divergence from the natural order are considered “normal” TCM can provide a framework for living a healthier happier and longer life.

]]> By: Max http://www.skepticblog.org/2008/11/02/tcm-1/#comment-27712 Max Fri, 24 Sep 2010 00:13:23 +0000 http://skepticblog.org/?p=220#comment-27712 Traditional Western medicine wasn't better than traditional Eastern medicine, but modern science-based Western medicine is better than both. The Black Plague started in China, and killed about half the population in both Europe and China. Traditional Western medicine wasn’t better than traditional Eastern medicine, but modern science-based Western medicine is better than both.

The Black Plague started in China, and killed about half the population in both Europe and China.

]]> By: Raoul http://www.skepticblog.org/2008/11/02/tcm-1/#comment-27710 Raoul Thu, 23 Sep 2010 23:49:28 +0000 http://skepticblog.org/?p=220#comment-27710 If traditional medicines don't work then how did both China and India sustain vastly larger populations than the West throughout recorded history. Whilst epidemics periodically swept both Eastern and Western nations the distinguishing factor that ensured Eastern peoples suffered less mortality and could sustain larger civilizations was the very traditional medicine systems most people here dismiss. No branch of medicine has all the answers. I thank God for Western medicine and Chinese medicine. Through experience I now choose from either according to my needs because they both have strengths and weaknesses. If people want to close their minds to alternatives thats their choice. If others want to embrace them thats theirs. If traditional medicines don’t work then how did both China and India sustain vastly larger populations than the West throughout recorded history. Whilst epidemics periodically swept both Eastern and Western nations the distinguishing factor that ensured Eastern peoples suffered less mortality and could sustain larger civilizations was the very traditional medicine systems most people here dismiss.
No branch of medicine has all the answers. I thank God for Western medicine and Chinese medicine. Through experience I now choose from either according to my needs because they both have strengths and weaknesses.
If people want to close their minds to alternatives thats their choice. If others want to embrace them thats theirs.

]]> By: Scott http://www.skepticblog.org/2008/11/02/tcm-1/#comment-24484 Scott Wed, 04 Aug 2010 08:42:18 +0000 http://skepticblog.org/?p=220#comment-24484 "China being the wonderful country that it is (fu-- you ADH) has a long enough written history where this kind of qualitative selection biases can be passed on and taught into a system of working medicine... ...my general background is fourth year of a Pharmaceutical Chemistry major at University of Toronto." Well perhaps. I fear however that you are ignoring the distorting effects of human psychological biases when TCM was developed in the manner outlined by yourself above. For instance:- Confirmation bias – the tendency to search for or interpret information in a way that confirms one's preconceptions. Illusion of control – the tendency to believe that outcomes can be controlled, or at least influenced, when they clearly cannot. Outcome bias – the tendency to judge a decision by its eventual outcome instead of based on the quality of the decision at the time it was made. Selective perception – the tendency for expectations to affect perception. Expectation bias – the tendency for experimenters to believe, certify, and publish data that agree with their expectations for the outcome of an experiment, and to disbelieve, discard, or downgrade the corresponding weightings for data that appear to conflict with those expectations Bandwagon effect – the tendency to do (or believe) things because many other people do (or believe) the same Clustering illusion – the tendency to see patterns where actually none exist. Mere exposure effect – the tendency to express undue liking for things merely because of familiarity with them. Belief bias – an effect where someone's evaluation of the logical strength of an argument is biased by the believability of the conclusion. Hindsight bias – sometimes called the "I-knew-it-all-along" effect, the tendency to see past events as being predictable. Illusory correlation – beliefs that inaccurately suppose a relationship between a certain type of action and an effect Recency effect – the tendency to weigh recent events more than earlier events All of these effects can individually prevent the selection of effective TCM remedies over ineffective and even potentially dangerous TCM remedies. Cumulatively, over a long period of time, these biases accumulate to render TCM no more than a hit or miss affair propped up by nothing more than superstition. There is no substitute for empirical studies. “China being the wonderful country that it is (fu– you ADH) has a long enough written history where this kind of qualitative selection biases can be passed on and taught into a system of working medicine…

…my general background is fourth year of a Pharmaceutical Chemistry major at University of Toronto.”

Well perhaps.

I fear however that you are ignoring the distorting effects of human psychological biases when TCM was developed in the manner outlined by yourself above.

For instance:-

Confirmation bias – the tendency to search for or interpret information in a way that confirms one’s preconceptions.

Illusion of control – the tendency to believe that outcomes can be controlled, or at least influenced, when they clearly cannot.

Outcome bias – the tendency to judge a decision by its eventual outcome instead of based on the quality of the decision at the time it was made.

Selective perception – the tendency for expectations to affect perception.

Expectation bias – the tendency for experimenters to believe, certify, and publish data that agree with their expectations for the outcome of an experiment, and to disbelieve, discard, or downgrade the corresponding weightings for data that appear to conflict with those expectations

Bandwagon effect – the tendency to do (or believe) things because many other people do (or believe) the same

Clustering illusion – the tendency to see patterns where actually none exist.

Mere exposure effect – the tendency to express undue liking for things merely because of familiarity with them.

Belief bias – an effect where someone’s evaluation of the logical strength of an argument is biased by the believability of the conclusion.

Hindsight bias – sometimes called the “I-knew-it-all-along” effect, the tendency to see past events as being predictable.

Illusory correlation – beliefs that inaccurately suppose a relationship between a certain type of action and an effect

Recency effect – the tendency to weigh recent events more than earlier events

All of these effects can individually prevent the selection of effective TCM remedies over ineffective and even potentially dangerous TCM remedies.

Cumulatively, over a long period of time, these biases accumulate to render TCM no more than a hit or miss affair propped up by nothing more than superstition.

There is no substitute for empirical studies.

]]> By: Scott http://www.skepticblog.org/2008/11/02/tcm-1/#comment-24483 Scott Wed, 04 Aug 2010 08:26:38 +0000 http://skepticblog.org/?p=220#comment-24483 I think you have missed the point. No one has a problem with herbal remedies (Chinese or otherwise) that have been proved to be safe and to have a positive medical effect through empirical study. The vast majority of Tradtional Chinese Medicines, on the other hand, have never been proved to be effective in empirical studies. In fact, some TCM has been proved to be positively deadly. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1254746/Chinese-medicine-caused-kidney-failure-cancer-So-safe-popular-cures.html In fact, TCM has been proved to cause medical complaints from kidney failure to cancer. I think you have missed the point.

No one has a problem with herbal remedies (Chinese or otherwise) that have been proved to be safe and to have a positive medical effect through empirical study.

The vast majority of Tradtional Chinese Medicines, on the other hand, have never been proved to be effective in empirical studies. In fact, some TCM has been proved to be positively deadly.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1254746/Chinese-medicine-caused-kidney-failure-cancer-So-safe-popular-cures.html
In fact, TCM has been proved to cause medical complaints from kidney failure to cancer.

]]> By: Krovak http://www.skepticblog.org/2008/11/02/tcm-1/#comment-22502 Krovak Sun, 20 Jun 2010 10:26:53 +0000 http://skepticblog.org/?p=220#comment-22502 emm... you said you teach english - what is your knowledge of chemistry and molecular biology when you judge others? And why do I need to know them when I'm for example cold? Do you think that most of western doctors uses molecular biology in his practice? Yes educated people knows that traditional medicine is nonsense. Usually until the time when western medicine does not have answers and some alternative helps. emm… you said you teach english – what is your knowledge of chemistry and molecular biology when you judge others? And why do I need to know them when I’m for example cold? Do you think that most of western doctors uses molecular biology in his practice?
Yes educated people knows that traditional medicine is nonsense. Usually until the time when western medicine does not have answers and some alternative helps.

]]> By: Justin http://www.skepticblog.org/2008/11/02/tcm-1/#comment-20263 Justin Wed, 14 Apr 2010 03:33:17 +0000 http://skepticblog.org/?p=220#comment-20263 The author and the commenters have no clue what they are talking about. You're all so busy being a "skeptic" and ask for credential/hard science, you don’t realize that none you have it either. Whatever the spiritual justification behind TCM, I suspect it was still developed from trial and experimentation as over generations, people do actually stumble upon ingredients in nature with real pharmaceutical qualities and decided to report antidotely postive results. For example, Asprin--> salicylic acid -->bark of willow trees Taxol --> Paclitaxel --> Pacific Yew tree. China being the wonderful country that it is (fuck you ADH) has a long enough written history where this kind of qualitative selection biases can be passed on and taught into a system of working medicine. Want proof? here is the clincher. Peer reviewed journal articles studying the effect of ingredients found in TCM on specific disease targets. S.P. Wasser, Medicinal mushrooms as a source of antitumor and immunomodulating polysaccharides, Appl. Microbiol. Biotechnol 60 (2002), pp. 258–274. SchaefferDJ, KrylovVS (2000) Anti-HIV activity of extracts and compounds from algae and Cyanobacteria. Ecotoxicol Environ Saf 45:208–227 N. Ohno, M. Furukawa, N.N. Miura, Y. Adachi, M. Motoi and T. Yadomae, Antitumor β-glucan from the cultured fruit body of Agaricus blazei, Biol. Pharm. Bull 7 (2001), pp. 820–828. K.S. Sim, W.S. Sim, H.M. Kim, S.B. Han and I.H. Kim, Immunostimulating polysaccharide from cell culture of Angelica gigas Nakai, Biotechnol. Lett 20 (1998), pp. 5–7. K.S. Zhao, C. Mancini and G. Doria, Enhancement of the immune response in mice by Astragalus membranaceus extracts, Immunopharmacology 20 (1990), pp. 225–234. M. Liu, J. Li, F. Kong, J. Lin and Y. Gao, Induction of immunomodulating cytokines by a new polysaccharide–peptide complex from culture mycelis of Lentinus edodes, Immunopharmacology 40 (1998), pp. 187–198. Y. Gao, S. Zhou, W.Q. Jiang, M. Huang and X. Dai, Effects of Ganopoly (A Ganoderma lucidum polysaccharide extract) on the immune functions in advanced-stage cancer patients, Immunol. Invest 3 (2003), pp. 201–215. S.B. Han, Y.D. Yoon, H.J. Ahn, H.S. Lee, C.W. Lee, W.K. Yoon, S.K. Park and H.M. Kim, Toll-like receptor-mediated activation of B cells and macrophages by polysaccharide isolated from cell culture of Acanthopanax senticosus, Int. Immunopharmacol 3 (2003), pp. 1301–1312. S.B. Han, S.K. Park, H.J. Ahn, Y.D. Yoon, Y.H. Kim, J.J. Lee, K.H. Lee, J.S. Moon, H.C. Kim and H.M. Kim, Characterization of B cell membrane receptors of polysaccharide isolated from the root of Acanthopanax koreanum, Int. Immunopharmacol 3 (2003), pp. 683–691. This is just from doing a quick google search and every paper here was started to study the KNOWN effects of traditional medicine ingredients and EVERY paper here is published in a well recognized international peer-reviewed journal. my general background is fourth year of a Pharmaceutical Chemistry major at University of Toronto. The author and the commenters have no clue what they are talking about. You’re all so busy being a “skeptic” and ask for credential/hard science, you don’t realize that none you have it either. Whatever the spiritual justification behind TCM, I suspect it was still developed from trial and experimentation as over generations, people do actually stumble upon ingredients in nature with real pharmaceutical qualities and decided to report antidotely postive results. For example, Asprin–> salicylic acid –>bark of willow trees Taxol –> Paclitaxel –> Pacific Yew tree. China being the wonderful country that it is (fuck you ADH) has a long enough written history where this kind of qualitative selection biases can be passed on and taught into a system of working medicine.

Want proof?
here is the clincher. Peer reviewed journal articles studying the effect of ingredients found in TCM on specific disease targets.

S.P. Wasser, Medicinal mushrooms as a source of antitumor and immunomodulating polysaccharides, Appl. Microbiol. Biotechnol 60 (2002), pp. 258–274.
SchaefferDJ, KrylovVS (2000) Anti-HIV activity of extracts and compounds from algae and Cyanobacteria. Ecotoxicol Environ Saf 45:208–227
N. Ohno, M. Furukawa, N.N. Miura, Y. Adachi, M. Motoi and T. Yadomae, Antitumor β-glucan from the cultured fruit body of Agaricus blazei, Biol. Pharm. Bull 7 (2001), pp. 820–828.
K.S. Sim, W.S. Sim, H.M. Kim, S.B. Han and I.H. Kim, Immunostimulating polysaccharide from cell culture of Angelica gigas Nakai, Biotechnol. Lett 20 (1998), pp. 5–7.
K.S. Zhao, C. Mancini and G. Doria, Enhancement of the immune response in mice by Astragalus membranaceus extracts, Immunopharmacology 20 (1990), pp. 225–234.
M. Liu, J. Li, F. Kong, J. Lin and Y. Gao, Induction of immunomodulating cytokines by a new polysaccharide–peptide complex from culture mycelis of Lentinus edodes, Immunopharmacology 40 (1998), pp. 187–198.
Y. Gao, S. Zhou, W.Q. Jiang, M. Huang and X. Dai, Effects of Ganopoly (A Ganoderma lucidum polysaccharide extract) on the immune functions in advanced-stage cancer patients, Immunol. Invest 3 (2003), pp. 201–215.
S.B. Han, Y.D. Yoon, H.J. Ahn, H.S. Lee, C.W. Lee, W.K. Yoon, S.K. Park and H.M. Kim, Toll-like receptor-mediated activation of B cells and macrophages by polysaccharide isolated from cell culture of Acanthopanax senticosus, Int. Immunopharmacol 3 (2003), pp. 1301–1312.
S.B. Han, S.K. Park, H.J. Ahn, Y.D. Yoon, Y.H. Kim, J.J. Lee, K.H. Lee, J.S. Moon, H.C. Kim and H.M. Kim, Characterization of B cell membrane receptors of polysaccharide isolated from the root of Acanthopanax koreanum, Int. Immunopharmacol 3 (2003), pp. 683–691.

This is just from doing a quick google search and every paper here was started to study the KNOWN effects of traditional medicine ingredients and EVERY paper here is published in a well recognized international peer-reviewed journal.

my general background is fourth year of a Pharmaceutical Chemistry major at University of Toronto.

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