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	<title>Comments on: The Welfare Queens of Wall Street</title>
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	<link>http://www.skepticblog.org/2008/10/24/welfare-queens-of-wallstreet/</link>
	<description>The official blog of the Skeptologists</description>
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		<title>By: Linda Rosa</title>
		<link>http://www.skepticblog.org/2008/10/24/welfare-queens-of-wallstreet/#comment-1277</link>
		<dc:creator>Linda Rosa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Dec 2008 07:54:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skepticblog.org/?p=18#comment-1277</guid>
		<description>Thank you, Michael.  This was a real pleasure to read.  I wish more people were speaking out like this about the &quot;bailout.&quot;  Many Americans allow their children to learn about the world with a form of discipline called logical consequences.  If only government saw the wisdom in using the same system and would allow corporations to suffer the short term pain so we could have a health economy in the long run.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you, Michael.  This was a real pleasure to read.  I wish more people were speaking out like this about the &#8220;bailout.&#8221;  Many Americans allow their children to learn about the world with a form of discipline called logical consequences.  If only government saw the wisdom in using the same system and would allow corporations to suffer the short term pain so we could have a health economy in the long run.</p>
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		<title>By: Devil's Advocate</title>
		<link>http://www.skepticblog.org/2008/10/24/welfare-queens-of-wallstreet/#comment-813</link>
		<dc:creator>Devil's Advocate</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Nov 2008 02:14:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skepticblog.org/?p=18#comment-813</guid>
		<description>OK, then... time has passed and the comments have petered out. And did we all arrive at a concise skeptical viewpoint on the economics involved in the article? Or did it turn out that nobody changed their minds from where they were when they first read the article, because, of course, each reader was quite sure his or her position was arrived at skeptically and required no changes?

LOL

Just because a skeptic is interested in politics or economics doesn&#039;t make the subject amenable to skepticism. I point to this long string of grossly diverse opinions as evidence that skeptical addressment of topics that are essentially opinion rather than fact driven is a waste of time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK, then&#8230; time has passed and the comments have petered out. And did we all arrive at a concise skeptical viewpoint on the economics involved in the article? Or did it turn out that nobody changed their minds from where they were when they first read the article, because, of course, each reader was quite sure his or her position was arrived at skeptically and required no changes?</p>
<p>LOL</p>
<p>Just because a skeptic is interested in politics or economics doesn&#8217;t make the subject amenable to skepticism. I point to this long string of grossly diverse opinions as evidence that skeptical addressment of topics that are essentially opinion rather than fact driven is a waste of time.</p>
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		<title>By: David Sickmiller</title>
		<link>http://www.skepticblog.org/2008/10/24/welfare-queens-of-wallstreet/#comment-648</link>
		<dc:creator>David Sickmiller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Nov 2008 02:38:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skepticblog.org/?p=18#comment-648</guid>
		<description>Am I too late to join the party?

While I may agree with the overall sentiment, I too must quibble with the claim that &quot;...only the people who produce the wealth can properly assess how best to risk it in future investments.&quot;  As other have noted &quot;the people who produce the wealth&quot; contextually seems to refer to investors.

I certainly agree that those exposed to risk have an incentive to mitigate it, but the link from incentive to ability is only indirect.  In just the previous paragraph, Shermer writes, &quot;potential home buyers and investors mistakenly assumed that the increasing trend line in housing prices would continue unabated indefinitely.&quot;

On the flip side, how can one say that disinterested individuals are necessarily unqualified to assess risk and reward?  It&#039;s obvious that regulators and research analysts cannot be wrong 100% of the time.

Writing something such as, &quot;Everything being equal, a free market operates best when risk is tied to reward,&quot; does not have the same rhetorical punch, but it would be closer to the truth.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Am I too late to join the party?</p>
<p>While I may agree with the overall sentiment, I too must quibble with the claim that &#8220;&#8230;only the people who produce the wealth can properly assess how best to risk it in future investments.&#8221;  As other have noted &#8220;the people who produce the wealth&#8221; contextually seems to refer to investors.</p>
<p>I certainly agree that those exposed to risk have an incentive to mitigate it, but the link from incentive to ability is only indirect.  In just the previous paragraph, Shermer writes, &#8220;potential home buyers and investors mistakenly assumed that the increasing trend line in housing prices would continue unabated indefinitely.&#8221;</p>
<p>On the flip side, how can one say that disinterested individuals are necessarily unqualified to assess risk and reward?  It&#8217;s obvious that regulators and research analysts cannot be wrong 100% of the time.</p>
<p>Writing something such as, &#8220;Everything being equal, a free market operates best when risk is tied to reward,&#8221; does not have the same rhetorical punch, but it would be closer to the truth.</p>
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		<title>By: brian m</title>
		<link>http://www.skepticblog.org/2008/10/24/welfare-queens-of-wallstreet/#comment-541</link>
		<dc:creator>brian m</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Nov 2008 03:28:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skepticblog.org/?p=18#comment-541</guid>
		<description>My only comment is the hope that people do what I did, write to your senators and representative and let them know how you feel. I sent a VERY explicit letter to each of mine telling them what a horrible kick in the sack I feel this was to average working Americans. Not that my one letter will do any good but maybe a thousand, or a few thousand or .....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My only comment is the hope that people do what I did, write to your senators and representative and let them know how you feel. I sent a VERY explicit letter to each of mine telling them what a horrible kick in the sack I feel this was to average working Americans. Not that my one letter will do any good but maybe a thousand, or a few thousand or &#8230;..</p>
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		<title>By: Introducing SkepticBlog &#171; Open Parachute</title>
		<link>http://www.skepticblog.org/2008/10/24/welfare-queens-of-wallstreet/#comment-499</link>
		<dc:creator>Introducing SkepticBlog &#171; Open Parachute</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Nov 2008 20:24:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skepticblog.org/?p=18#comment-499</guid>
		<description>[...]  The Welfare Queens of Wall Street  [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...]  The Welfare Queens of Wall Street  [...]</p>
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		<title>By: JOHN k.</title>
		<link>http://www.skepticblog.org/2008/10/24/welfare-queens-of-wallstreet/#comment-459</link>
		<dc:creator>JOHN k.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Nov 2008 06:45:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skepticblog.org/?p=18#comment-459</guid>
		<description>Yes, I read most of the comments and appreciate all the well ment thought contained. My question however is, where did, or will, AIG and all the other recipiants spent these great sums of money? Are there rally so many subprime rate loans out to make up the over trillions of dollars lost, when combining all related losses over the world.
If AIG still has over 50 trillion dollars of CDS contracts on their books, and who knows how many other banks and institutions still have, and we will have to bail all of them out, and if only 10% should fail, where will we find all that money?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, I read most of the comments and appreciate all the well ment thought contained. My question however is, where did, or will, AIG and all the other recipiants spent these great sums of money? Are there rally so many subprime rate loans out to make up the over trillions of dollars lost, when combining all related losses over the world.<br />
If AIG still has over 50 trillion dollars of CDS contracts on their books, and who knows how many other banks and institutions still have, and we will have to bail all of them out, and if only 10% should fail, where will we find all that money?</p>
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		<title>By: Double H</title>
		<link>http://www.skepticblog.org/2008/10/24/welfare-queens-of-wallstreet/#comment-425</link>
		<dc:creator>Double H</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Nov 2008 03:36:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skepticblog.org/?p=18#comment-425</guid>
		<description>I have a good understanding of the Financial Markets and you can trace these problems to really 2 things...9/11 and Enron.  As a Libertarian I believe that Government is not at the root of most problems, but BAD Government is.  After 9/11 The Fed Lowered Rates to insanely low levels and then obviously left them there way to long, it over-reacted.  Credit Became SO cheap it no longer made sense to save money, as your rate of return was significantly less than the rate of Inflation.  This caused unprecedented use of Leverage in the financial community in order to seek returns.  Lehman Bros. was leveraged at a Ridiculous 20 to 1 ratio for example.  Leverage is not a bad thing by itself; this is what allows you to buy a car or a home without having to pay ALL Cash for it.  Over-leveraging, however IS a problem as you should have some of your own money at risk when making financial decisions.  You should NOT be able to buy a Home or a car without putting SOMETHING down.  Many homes and cars were sold the last 10 yrs with NOTHING down.  That is a leverage factor of Infinity!!!  The crash of &#039;29 was the result of overleveraging as well that is why we now have a 50% Margin call when you buy stock on Margin.  The next problem was the Mark to Market Accounting Problem as a result of Enron and its illegal uses of it.  Again a Gov entity over-reacted &amp; didn&#039;t see the problems this new regulation would cause.  So, now Securities have to be Mark to Market even when there is NO market!!  So how do these overleveraged firms now De-leverage?  They have to sell whatever they can or fold into Bankruptcy.  As a result of all this FORCED selling all Securities are getting hammered.  Anyone who understands investing knows that 1.) it should be looked at as Long Term, and 2.) the WORST time to sell is when the Market is down, which is exactly what mark to market Accounting FORCES you to do and these two things have caused together caused a downward spiral that is now bordering on the ridiculous as there are many firms that are now priced BELOW the value of the Company&#039;s cash holding which means those firms Non-cash assets are now at a negative value.  It simply makes no sense, but this is what can happen when there is forced selling because you have more sellers than buyers.  The answer is simple we should get rid of Mark to Market accounting that causes forced selling at lest in the short term.  If in the long term you want mark to market then you need to at the same time require higher margin requirements of investment firms, but let them de-leverage first.  I think in the long run many of these non-sub prime Mortgage backed securities will regain their value along with Real Estate and other Assets, as there is simply a huge amount of American funds parked in cash right now, simply waiting for the market to recover.  So when the market recovers it will happen very quickly and dramatically and that&#039;s why Warren Buffet is back in the market...he knows it will happen and doesn&#039;t want to miss it.  He doesn&#039;t know when it&#039;ll happen, heck it could be days or years, but it will happen.  

Yes the Bailout is a Government fix, but government caused the problem as it usually does with its typical &quot;unintended&quot; consequences of poor regulation, so it&#039;s only proper that Government fixes the problem by re-capitalizing banks that mark to Market forced to sell even their good assets.  Look at it like this, just imagine if that home you bought 3 or 4 yrs ago and is now underwater (you owe more than it&#039;s worth) and the Government forced you to mark to market to the same LTV you had when you purchased the home, and that would cost you thousands or force you to sell in a down market.  Smart money says that you hold the property and in 10 yrs you&#039;ll be fine, because selling now &quot;locks-in&quot; the loss.  

Yes sub prime mortgage-backed securities were a bad idea and those who bought them should have lost money, but mark-to-market and artificially low interest rates threw Napalm on what should have been a small fire.  It caused securities that should be worth 70-80 cents on the dollar to sell at 10-20 cents on the dollar.  So instead of firms just holding the securities to maturity and have 20% losses (or perhaps none!), they were forced to sell and lose 80% or 90%.  It shocks me that this issue isn&#039;t being discussed as part of the bailout plan.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have a good understanding of the Financial Markets and you can trace these problems to really 2 things&#8230;9/11 and Enron.  As a Libertarian I believe that Government is not at the root of most problems, but BAD Government is.  After 9/11 The Fed Lowered Rates to insanely low levels and then obviously left them there way to long, it over-reacted.  Credit Became SO cheap it no longer made sense to save money, as your rate of return was significantly less than the rate of Inflation.  This caused unprecedented use of Leverage in the financial community in order to seek returns.  Lehman Bros. was leveraged at a Ridiculous 20 to 1 ratio for example.  Leverage is not a bad thing by itself; this is what allows you to buy a car or a home without having to pay ALL Cash for it.  Over-leveraging, however IS a problem as you should have some of your own money at risk when making financial decisions.  You should NOT be able to buy a Home or a car without putting SOMETHING down.  Many homes and cars were sold the last 10 yrs with NOTHING down.  That is a leverage factor of Infinity!!!  The crash of &#8217;29 was the result of overleveraging as well that is why we now have a 50% Margin call when you buy stock on Margin.  The next problem was the Mark to Market Accounting Problem as a result of Enron and its illegal uses of it.  Again a Gov entity over-reacted &amp; didn&#8217;t see the problems this new regulation would cause.  So, now Securities have to be Mark to Market even when there is NO market!!  So how do these overleveraged firms now De-leverage?  They have to sell whatever they can or fold into Bankruptcy.  As a result of all this FORCED selling all Securities are getting hammered.  Anyone who understands investing knows that 1.) it should be looked at as Long Term, and 2.) the WORST time to sell is when the Market is down, which is exactly what mark to market Accounting FORCES you to do and these two things have caused together caused a downward spiral that is now bordering on the ridiculous as there are many firms that are now priced BELOW the value of the Company&#8217;s cash holding which means those firms Non-cash assets are now at a negative value.  It simply makes no sense, but this is what can happen when there is forced selling because you have more sellers than buyers.  The answer is simple we should get rid of Mark to Market accounting that causes forced selling at lest in the short term.  If in the long term you want mark to market then you need to at the same time require higher margin requirements of investment firms, but let them de-leverage first.  I think in the long run many of these non-sub prime Mortgage backed securities will regain their value along with Real Estate and other Assets, as there is simply a huge amount of American funds parked in cash right now, simply waiting for the market to recover.  So when the market recovers it will happen very quickly and dramatically and that&#8217;s why Warren Buffet is back in the market&#8230;he knows it will happen and doesn&#8217;t want to miss it.  He doesn&#8217;t know when it&#8217;ll happen, heck it could be days or years, but it will happen.  </p>
<p>Yes the Bailout is a Government fix, but government caused the problem as it usually does with its typical &#8220;unintended&#8221; consequences of poor regulation, so it&#8217;s only proper that Government fixes the problem by re-capitalizing banks that mark to Market forced to sell even their good assets.  Look at it like this, just imagine if that home you bought 3 or 4 yrs ago and is now underwater (you owe more than it&#8217;s worth) and the Government forced you to mark to market to the same LTV you had when you purchased the home, and that would cost you thousands or force you to sell in a down market.  Smart money says that you hold the property and in 10 yrs you&#8217;ll be fine, because selling now &#8220;locks-in&#8221; the loss.  </p>
<p>Yes sub prime mortgage-backed securities were a bad idea and those who bought them should have lost money, but mark-to-market and artificially low interest rates threw Napalm on what should have been a small fire.  It caused securities that should be worth 70-80 cents on the dollar to sell at 10-20 cents on the dollar.  So instead of firms just holding the securities to maturity and have 20% losses (or perhaps none!), they were forced to sell and lose 80% or 90%.  It shocks me that this issue isn&#8217;t being discussed as part of the bailout plan.</p>
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		<title>By: misanthropope</title>
		<link>http://www.skepticblog.org/2008/10/24/welfare-queens-of-wallstreet/#comment-373</link>
		<dc:creator>misanthropope</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Nov 2008 02:05:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skepticblog.org/?p=18#comment-373</guid>
		<description>much has been made over the statement &quot;only the people who produce the wealth can properly assess how best to risk it&quot;.  but the flap seems to be primarily over an error in wording:  author&#039;s point is served if the sentence reads &quot;only the people who OWN the wealth...&quot;

the only rational way i can see to look at this issue is this:  the costs to the taxpayer are absolutely obvious.  the benefits to the parties who brought us to this state of affairs are likewise obvious.  it is reasonable to say &quot;it is a crisis, we don&#039;t have the luxury of punishing the guilty parties&quot;, but the government is _absolutely_ obliged to make a convincing case that the cure benefits those of us who will be paying for it.  the claim has been repeated often enough, but not one shred of evidence or clear reasoning has been advanced.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>much has been made over the statement &#8220;only the people who produce the wealth can properly assess how best to risk it&#8221;.  but the flap seems to be primarily over an error in wording:  author&#8217;s point is served if the sentence reads &#8220;only the people who OWN the wealth&#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>the only rational way i can see to look at this issue is this:  the costs to the taxpayer are absolutely obvious.  the benefits to the parties who brought us to this state of affairs are likewise obvious.  it is reasonable to say &#8220;it is a crisis, we don&#8217;t have the luxury of punishing the guilty parties&#8221;, but the government is _absolutely_ obliged to make a convincing case that the cure benefits those of us who will be paying for it.  the claim has been repeated often enough, but not one shred of evidence or clear reasoning has been advanced.</p>
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		<title>By: Pertti Jarla</title>
		<link>http://www.skepticblog.org/2008/10/24/welfare-queens-of-wallstreet/#comment-351</link>
		<dc:creator>Pertti Jarla</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Oct 2008 15:16:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skepticblog.org/?p=18#comment-351</guid>
		<description>I understand mr. Shermer&#039;s libertarian opinions, but in the end he says: &quot;only the people who produce the wealth can properly assess how best to risk it in future investments&quot;. Here he seems to make the assumption that politicians and businesspeople are two totally separate groups. However, politicians usually have past, present and future ties and experience with business. Consider President Bush, for example. 
  I think that bailing out companies with taxpayers money is a sign of failure of the government. Ideally it should never happen. It may (or may not) be the right thing to do to put out the fire, but after you make a mistake you must make changes: something in the regulation and control of the economy must be changed to keep this from happening again.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I understand mr. Shermer&#8217;s libertarian opinions, but in the end he says: &#8220;only the people who produce the wealth can properly assess how best to risk it in future investments&#8221;. Here he seems to make the assumption that politicians and businesspeople are two totally separate groups. However, politicians usually have past, present and future ties and experience with business. Consider President Bush, for example.<br />
  I think that bailing out companies with taxpayers money is a sign of failure of the government. Ideally it should never happen. It may (or may not) be the right thing to do to put out the fire, but after you make a mistake you must make changes: something in the regulation and control of the economy must be changed to keep this from happening again.</p>
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		<title>By: Bob</title>
		<link>http://www.skepticblog.org/2008/10/24/welfare-queens-of-wallstreet/#comment-344</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Oct 2008 13:58:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skepticblog.org/?p=18#comment-344</guid>
		<description>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6X4q2qJ1cUM</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6X4q2qJ1cUM" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6X4q2qJ1cUM</a></p>
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